28-02-2004 05:17									#181
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Why do you still have a warrior?

	28-02-2004 05:17									#182
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double post.

	28-02-2004 06:51									#183
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quote: Originally posted by Krill Why do you still have a warrior?

That's Grog. He's holding the fort in Amsterdam so that none of the AI civs get any ideas about attacking an undefended city. I never got around to upgrading him (no other need for a Barracks), and the one Swiss Merc. that I built was worth more Shields when I needed to disband something for rushing purposes.


Dominae

	28-02-2004 15:31									#184
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ok, wrong question, why haven't you upgraded the warrior or built better defensive units

	28-02-2004 21:47									#185
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quote: Originally posted by Thriller Thought I'd try this one too now AU501 is finished! Don't have time for a commentary on this one, but I've noticed a few unusual things already: 1. Upon first meeting AI civ's seem to be polite. Isn't this strange for Emperor? 2. AI's don't seem very aggressive (except Greece who is a million miles away and declared war for no reason). So far have only had one extortion demand and that was for 13g 3. Not too many AI-AI wars seem to be happening either 4. AI tech pace seems slower 5. Cool map! Any comments on the above MS?

1. It's normal. I set the 'aggressivness' on the minimum, as to make the finish more dramatic...
2. ditto
3. ditto, I wanted all the AI to stay in the game as long as possible
4. dunno, I did not tamper with that
5. thanks, but perfectly random...

	28-02-2004 21:56									#186
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Now, this is why I asked you to save the game prior of your diplo win.

NEVER HEARD ABOUT ALTERNATE HISTORY?

It goes as follows: on the morning of the vote at the UN, you woke up fresh and relaxed. Willy would not carry unanimity, but he would be elected with a clear majority. All of a sudden, the phone rings. Willy is at the other end. 'Listen, you counsellor, why should I become Secretary-General of a puny world, when the stars themselves will be within my grasp soon? Call the election off, now we're in or a new race. Oh, and besides, make a list of those who did not plan to vote for me, they shall pay it'.

The election is called off, you go for the space race and start conquering all other civs. Good luck.

Dominae: you have a long way to go, it seems

	28-02-2004 22:05									#187
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Sod that...........I'm playing for a diplo win as instructed.

	28-02-2004 23:29									#188
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Plot twist hey.

	29-02-2004 00:58									#189
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Yeah, I'm screwed.

So the victory types now available to us are Conquest, Domination and Spaceship? I'll win by Culture long before any of those happen, unless I disband Amsterdam...


Dominae

	29-02-2004 07:37									#190
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Oh, all my lovely tanks can go visit Ragnar at last? There is just something GREAT about tanks.

It will be a while, as my right shoulder is aching and I am neck deep in two other games at the moment. But I will be back!

	29-02-2004 08:48									#191
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I never like Ragnar anyway, so pound him.

	29-02-2004 16:40									#192
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I'm playing.........it's going well.

However, is flipping on? I have 2 Viking cities that must flip to me sooner or later. My palace is right in their face, and my culture is more than twice theirs. Many of the squares surrounding their cities are in my hands.

Flip damnit!

	29-02-2004 18:05									#193
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae Yeah, I'm screwed. So the victory types now available to us are Conquest, Domination and Spaceship? I'll win by Culture long before any of those happen, unless I disband Amsterdam... Dominae

sorry, I didn't expect you to play an OCC game. BTW, still about your game , well, some people carry their avatar's names better than others...

The Spaceship victory is 'mandatory'. Afterwards, we'll see... I'll post some screenshots and comments about my first part early next week.

	29-02-2004 18:07									#194
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quote: Originally posted by DrSpike I'm playing.........it's going well. However, is flipping on? I have 2 Viking cities that must flip to me sooner or later. My palace is right in their face, and my culture is more than twice theirs. Many of the squares surrounding their cities are in my hands. Flip damnit!

No, it's not on, otherwise Dominae would have won by 'proxy flipping'.
You have to get at them the hard way, with sticks and stones and....

	29-02-2004 18:11									#195
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That's silly. If there is no war then we should be able to flip.

Also did you mention you turned it off earlier? I would have finished earlier had I bumped my palace somewhere more central. I was using the knowledge that those Viking cities must flip.

	29-02-2004 19:01									#196
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If he mentioned that Culture Flips was off then I too missed it. I've had my FP in a border city against the vikings, buying in all culture buildings in my four border towns etc etc. (Same up north to try and get the Cartaginian gems via a flip.)

Not too much hassle, but the 20,000+ gold I sunk in 'worthless' culture buildings could have gone to better use. (Second turn buying of all available culture buildings in 9 cities!!!)

Oh well, those Viking border cities are going to 'flip' now for sure.

	29-02-2004 19:13									#197
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Hmm, should probably mention changes to the default rules if they are in place.

	01-03-2004 03:01									#198
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Well I played it out with my interesting palace location, and won by UN victory in 1280AD.

Most of the game is pretty dull to be honest, since the traits we have are way overpowered for this map. The most interesting elements from a strategic viewpoint are the opening and the FP, so I have some thoughts to share on those with some screenies in a moment.

	01-03-2004 03:49									#199
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The opening

Initial joy dashed as I realise the wheat is on plains, and thus we can only reach +4 food. However, there are always resources with land as nice as this. Upon reflection I advise the Dutch leader to operate from 3 to 5 on a 6 turn warrior/settler cycle. I calculate we do not need to kick a worker before the granary is up if we start the granary after the initial exploring warrior, so we delay it until pop will rebound faster. The key to maximising in this opening, as so often, is irrigating the bonus food tile first. This should be done before any roading or mining is considered. Since the factory is ill-suited at all points in the cycle for worker kicking maxing pop first allows us to kick some workers before the warrior/settler cycle begins. These can road their way to next cities, thus offsetting the slightly slower expansion.

In the screenshot we are about to kick our first settler.

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	01-03-2004 04:00									#200
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This is a large map, and we will need some luxuries in the capital, so anything other than 50 turn writing first is questionable in this case. We want to go Code of Laws then Philosophy, so as to take the expensive Republic as the free tech. Given the land and the settings this is a good gamble.

Soon the wandering warrior shows the beatiful land to the SouthEast. We decide early we want our palace there, but we must beat the Scandinavians. The land to the North East looks less contested. Already one should be thinking about FP placement and strategy. This is a textbook palace bump setup.

We soon decide (after the screenshot) that building it at Rotterdam will enable a very early FP at little trade-off, since Rotterdam was our curragh kicker and hence has no granary. Specialisation is the key here - all the other initial cities went straight to a granary so we can cover the contested land (and there is a lot of it) quickly.

The workers built earlier have ensured the land is being used well, with all appropriate improvements.

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	01-03-2004 04:10									#201
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We spam cities as fast as humanly possible. Arnhem in the centre is the proposed new palace, on the grounds that with some early culture the 2 Scandinavian cities to the South will surely flip. Several border cities are going for early temples to this end. Ordinarily the new cities should do granary/worker or just worker, depending on the city. Cities not on the border do so. Since there is no possibility of flipping if it has been turned off without telling the players ( ) this was not optimal......slightly earlier worker spam from those cities would be better. Maastricht would be a slightly better palace with no flipping allowed, though analysis later in the game showed the additional distance corruption effects caused are not terribly severe.

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	01-03-2004 04:17									#202
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After we got Republic we gifted it to all, and started on Mathematics, finishing around 1000BC. We started on currency, but bought the tech with 5 turns to go from an AI. The same happened with construction. We traded for all techs not mentioned.

After construction we revolted, reaching Republic in 530BC. The palace bumped to Arnhem as planned in 250BC. Now that the FP core is the weaker one we had to build lots of workers to improve the new land before bumping the palace. In the screenshot it is freshly bumped.

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	01-03-2004 04:23									#203
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In 250BC we have 21 cities, including those to the North on the final screenshot. Ordinarily this would be slightly skimpy for a large map, but back of the envelope calculation showed that with this land we would be able to retain 4 turn techs in the late game. This is particularly true in light of the fact that from wonders that we can use to start the GA Hoover's is likely the second, which is quite late anyway.

With low AI aggression and an empire with 2 cores up at 250BC on beautiful land the game is over.

Final UN victory was in 1280AD.

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	01-03-2004 05:45									#204
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DrSpike I had to show my ignorance again, but why do you insist that some city should flip?

I use the culture conversion in all my games and very rarely see cities flip.

Lately most of the games have been at levels where I am not going to be the king in culture, but even emperor games where I have won by culture victory it is not common for cities to flip.

What am I missing?

	01-03-2004 06:05									#205
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Well this setup where I got the early start on culture and then bumped the palace to the front line meant a flip was very likely, even though it is tricky to flip native cities.

The main factors are:

1) Comparative distance to palaces, with those 2 cities right next to mine.

2) I had the most culture.

3) I plumped my cities right next to theirs as you can see from the screenshot so that some of 'their' city squares were under my control.

All these things help, but the probability is of course still low on any one turn (I estimate somewhere between 0.75% and 1%). Over the whole game though, is it IMO a near certainty that those two cities would have flipped.

	01-03-2004 07:27									#206
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I have not gone all to flip them by moving the palace. I know the factors, but it is not worth messing up my core.

Last time I remember a few flips was as the Babs, but big time fliping seemed to died way down after PTW.

	01-03-2004 09:35									#207
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One of my earlier C3C games on Monarch Difficulty had not 1, not 2, but 3 cities flip to me.

The Hittites outexpanded me east of the capital, which left me with only 1 1/2 ring of cities to the east. My initial strategy was to plop down cities to steal a few key resources. This had the effect of encircling a hittite city and convertng it. The next two flipped from a much my deliberate attempt on my part to box those cities in with my cities.

playing a religious civ w/ cheap temples helped too. It's possible for sure, but I think the flip rate is now good enough as to not be too exploitable. It's a bonus.

	01-03-2004 11:40									#208
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1565: We got Rocketry, now working on Miniaturization. If I conquer the Scandinavians I'll get all necessary parts for the spaceship. Also got an Internet prebuild. Almost all cities are building bombers. It's a real pity that Bombers don't upgrade to Stealth Bombers.
1580: Viking declare war. Towns explode with Happiness.
1590: Our tank army is victorious. Work on HE and MA initiated. Vikings losing lots of towns. Where I get "achilles corners" my stack of artillery does the job, where I don't my sturdy bombers do the job.

Working on finishing the Internet, and teching on Nuclear Power. After that it's Synthetic Fiber and Prereqs, then the one that gives Manufacturing Plants. I want to set up some wicked SS part shops.

Greece declared war on Portugal. After that World War broke out. Ever since 1-2 new wars have started per turn, with no wars ending! (Except when they start again the same turn.)

Turns are getting sluggish.

1635: Built The Internet. Down to 5t/tech. Working on Laser to get Robotics. Then the Stealth branch, then all necessary space techs. No one is teching on things I am not, so no use in trading. *deep sigh* Shoulder is hurting again, so more later.

Still no boats. Don't think I have had a more advanced boat than a Galley, which shipped people over to the three islands I grabbed. If the AI 'threatens' me on the high seas I sink em with carpet bombing.

Two armies to go before Pentagon can be built. Pentagon supported MA Armies are da bomb. There are so many cool toys to play around with in the modern era. I just tire of too many games and settle for a diplomatic win, should go for SS more often. It's after all the 'real' win.

	01-03-2004 14:16									#209
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 I have not gone all to flip them by moving the palace. I know the factors, but it is not worth messing up my core. Last time I remember a few flips was as the Babs, but big time fliping seemed to died way down after PTW.

I agree. But if you are moving it anyway..............

	01-03-2004 14:40									#210
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quote: Originally posted by DrSpike Hmm, should probably mention changes to the default rules if they are in place.

Sorry about that, I just forgot to mention it.