13-12-2003 01:24									#121
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quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed quote: Republican and wishy-washy liberals make me mad. Don't get me started on those dirty moderates. @che following party line lets you engage your mind less.

Well it's not like I have access to my library at work. It's more fun to be cantankerous.

	13-12-2003 01:25									#122
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Che, I can hardly imagine you raising kids. What are you going to say to them during Christmas for example? Christ was an evil baby?

No, that Santa is a sweatshop owner and all his poor little elves are exploited. "DOWN WITH SANTA'S SWEATSHOP!"

	13-12-2003 01:25									#123
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I still want to know why extremism would make more sense to anyone over moderation.


There is nothing spineless about being reasonable and holding intelligent positions on issues without kow-towing to extreme ideologies.

	13-12-2003 01:26									#124
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun Being reasonable, and standing on the middle ground is not equated with being spineless.

Crap. You're so open-minded your brain fell out years ago.

	13-12-2003 01:27									#125
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun There is nothing spineless about being reasonable and holding intelligent positions on issues without kow-towing to extreme ideologies.

That's true. Let me know when you are reasonable and hold an intelligent position on something.

	13-12-2003 01:29									#126
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I have -- many times.


Anyway, Happy Holidays ya big commie grouch.

	13-12-2003 01:31									#127
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@che

extremism having intelligent positions?

	13-12-2003 01:32									#128
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Boris, I assume you have the credentials to make this statement?

I need credentials to say you've never lived in a Nazi or Communist country?

	13-12-2003 01:34									#129
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quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed @che extremism having intelligent positions?

Since what's extreme is defined in relation to what's considered moderate, this is certainly possible. It was once considered "extremist" to consider blacks has human beings fully equal to whites. Is that not an intelligent position?

	13-12-2003 01:34									#130
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Yeah Boris -- how do YOU know whether or not Ned has a time machine?

	13-12-2003 01:34									#131
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quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed @che extremism having intelligent positions?

radical, from the latin, to get at the root

The truth, by definition, is radical. Truth is an extreme position. Truth makes people uncomfortable, which is why most people don't like it. I love the truth. The truth set me free. Take the red pill.


And a tip o' the hat to Boris.

	13-12-2003 01:36									#132
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Believing that gays should have civil rights was an extremist position.

	13-12-2003 01:37									#133
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quote: There's a place in the world for the angry young man With his working class ties and his radical plans He refuses to bend, he refuses to crawl, He's always at home with his back to the wall. And he's proud of his scars and the battles he's lost, And he struggles and bleeds as he hangs on the cross- And he likes to be known as the angry young man. Give a moment or two to the angry young man, With his foot in his mouth and his heart in his hand. He's been stabbed in the back, he's been misunderstood, It's a comfort to know his intentions are good. And he sits in a room with a lock on the door, With his maps and his medals laid out on the floor- And he likes to be known as the angry young man. I believe I've passed the age of consciousness and righteous rage I found that just surviving was a noble fight. I once believed in causes too, I had my pointless point of view, And life went on no matter who was wrong or right. And there's always a place for the angry young man, With his fist in the air and his head in the sand. And he's never been able to learn from mistakes, So he can't understand why his heart always breaks. But his honor is pure and his courage as well, And he's fair and he's true and he's boring as hell- And he'll go to the grave as an angry old man.

	13-12-2003 01:37									#134
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Ok, Boris has a good point with that.


But how can you lump ALL extremist positions today, as possibily becoming reasonable in the foreseeable future??

	13-12-2003 01:39									#135
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Arrian,
I'm doing the trolling here, thank you very much.

	13-12-2003 01:41									#136
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Luv ya, big guy.

-Arrian

	13-12-2003 01:42									#137
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun Ok, Boris has a good point with that. But how can you lump ALL extremist positions today, as possibily becoming reasonable in the foreseeable future??

Look at conservatism. Barry Goldwater was considered a dangerous extremist in 1964. They were right, but today he is the modern father of the Republican Party. Today, his dangerous extremism is considered reasonable by many in this sad country.

My extremisim, however, is based on science, and empirical fact, and logic, and history, i.e., on the truth. It's a sad, sad, world we live in where the truth is considered extreme.

	13-12-2003 01:43									#138
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quote: My extremisim, however, is based on science, and empirical fact, and logic, and history, i.e., on the truth. ... I'm doing the trolling here, thank you very much.

Yes, yes you are.

	13-12-2003 01:44									#139
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It's sad I had to spell it out, isn't it.

	13-12-2003 01:44									#140
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Look at conservatism. Barry Goldwater was considered a dangerous extremist in 1964. They were right, but today he is the modern father of the Republican Party. Today, his dangerous extremism is considered reasonable by many in this sad country. My extremisim, however, is based on science, and empirical fact, and logic, and history, i.e., on the truth. It's a sad, sad, world we live in where the truth is considered extreme.

Let's look at other examples of extremist ideology.

There is one sect of extreme feminists who do not represent mainstream feminism. These extremists equate marriage with prostitution.

Do you honestly think that in the foreseeable future, this will eventually become integrated in moderate, mainstream societal values??

	13-12-2003 01:46									#141
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun Do you honestly think that in the foreseeable future, this will eventually become integrated in moderate, mainstream societal values??

No, but stranger things have happened. It's considered reasonable to have a giant invisible friend in the sky telling you how to live your life. That's definately an extremist position if I ever heard one, so maybe one day marriage will be considered prostitution. Course, the latter has slightly more basis in fact than the former, even if it doesn't tell the whole story.

	13-12-2003 01:47									#142
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I find blackice's original post sad. people who villify should have the guts to be villified. Yet again the debate on gay rights has been rather one sided-but how could it not.

As for moderation-Che is correct that moderation is a utterly subjective term-just like the term "sanity"- the position held by the largest group is treated as "sane"-the further you go fromt his, the more "insane" you are. of course, since majorities don't create truth but meanings, the truth can certainly be extreme and "insane".

	13-12-2003 01:48									#143
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Look at conservatism. Barry Goldwater was considered a dangerous extremist in 1964. They were right, but today he is the modern father of the Republican Party. Today, his dangerous extremism is considered reasonable by many in this sad country.

Goldwater is considered too liberal by a good portion of the Republican Party today. This isn't something you'd find in most bastions of Republicanism these days:

http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs.cmu....-goldwater.html

	13-12-2003 01:48									#144
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GePap gets it. Boris gets it. Arrian gets it too. And none of them are wrong.

	13-12-2003 01:52									#145
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quote: Originally posted by GePap I find blackice's original post sad. people who villify should have the guts to be villified. Yet again the debate on gay rights has been rather one sided-but how could it not. As for moderation-Che is correct that moderation is a utterly subjective term-just like the term "sanity"- the position held by the largest group is treated as "sane"-the further you go fromt his, the more "insane" you are. of course, since majorities don't create truth but meanings, the truth can certainly be extreme and "insane".

I agree that moderate positions and extreme positions can change with perceptions over a historical period of time.

So as a result, my moderate perceptions are based on contemporary biases of mainstream liberal-moderate positions on different issues that were either extreme in the past, or might be seen as extreme in some future period.


ok

	13-12-2003 01:56									#146
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun . . . ok

Alright, if you can handle that concept, then you should be able to understand then the truth is not relative to other people's positions, i.e., somewhere in the middle, but can be located at any point along a continum. The truth should b sought via science and logic and history, not by being moderate.

This is not to say that a moderate position may not be a correct one. However, it is not correct merely by virture of being moderate.

	13-12-2003 01:56									#147
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Why not just base your positions on each particular issue on rational thought and what you feel is morally the right thing to do?

	13-12-2003 01:58									#148
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But moderation can use science, logic and history to reach towards truth -- and, since I understand how extreme positions can be seen as more truthful at some other time, I guess both, moderation or extremism can reach the truth through science, logic and history.

	13-12-2003 02:00									#149
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And this is where agreement between you and I comes to an end Che..what objective lessons can you draw from history? You would need a set point of reference to try to do that, but how do you chose such a point without being arbitrary?

Marx chose to believe man's identity comes from his eocnomic activity-I think that is wrong and I have some evidence for it (and surely you have some evidence for it)- at a certain point, one must chose a meaning to measure by, but meaning is subjectively created-and thus the porblem starts.

	13-12-2003 02:01									#150
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You put the cart before the horse, Fun. I use science, logic, and history to find my position. That position may than be moderate, radical, or even, heavens!, conservative. The truth should dictate your positions. Your positions should not dictate what you think is the truth.