14-12-2003 02:48									#1
	What is the fundamental root of homophobia? Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Does the fundamental root of homophobia lie in individual-oriented psychology, or within a broader sociological factor??

I have thought about this the past few days, and here is what I think.



The root of homophobia lies in conservative heterosexuals' desire to externalize an internal problem that is perceived to exist within heterosexual society. In other words, that these particular heterosexuals want to scapegoat homosexuals for what they perceive as being problematic but is originating from within heterosexual society.


The problem that these conservative heterosexuals perceive, is that marriage as how it has traditionally been held in high-esteem (whether that is mythical history, or historical reality is another question) has degenerated to a mere pact of convenience that can be disavowed if it becomes "inconvenient" to maintain that marriage.

Whether or not the sacredeness of marriage was EVER a reality in some past period, is another question. Here, I'm talking about conservative heterosexuals who PERCEIVE this idealized vision of what marriage used to be like, compared to what they perceive the state of marriage today, as an institution.

So, this perceived degradation of marriage is not happening because of homosexuals -- it is within heterosexual society that marriage has been degraded -- based on the biased perceptions of conservative heterosexuals. Marriage/family within heterosexual society has long-since changed:

1) 50% or more heterosexuals divorce rather than working out issues that could be worked out in many of these marriages.

2) Heterosexuals are part of the social phenomenon of drive-through, Las Vegas style weddings.

3) There are an increasing number of non-traditional, but still heterosexual-oriented families (foster families, children raised by grandparents, single parent families, and so on)

It seems like society might be in a transitional period, where the traditional, agrarian-based family has ultimately failed to adapt to post-industrial, modern society and as a result, there will be fundamental changes in the future (we can't foresee what the results will be though).



So, it could be that conservative heterosexuals who are mortified by the above societal factors and developments, see these changes as being completely problematic. Instead of advocating for adapting to new concepts of family to stabliize our society, they argue for holding onto what MIGHT be anachronistic values that no longer apply to the reality of post-industrial modern society.

And they seek to hold onto what might be anachronistic concepts of family by externalizing these internal problems within heterosexual society, onto a group of people they can scapegoat -- homosexuals. Rather than face what they perceive to be problems within heterosexual society through adaptation, they want to scapegoat homosexuals to hold onto what might be just sentimental, anachronistic concepts of family.

These conservative heterosexuals may be venting their anger about these internal problems of heterosexual society by lashing out against homosexuals.



What does anyone think about these thoughts? Do you have ideas on how this idea can be further reinforced, or do you have a completely different idea from this?

And are the changes within heterosexual society towards concept of family simply PERCEIVED as degradation, and is it really just transitory change that could bring either good OR bad results??

	14-12-2003 02:50									#2
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Homophobia is no different from any other intolerance.

	14-12-2003 02:56									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

"heterosexual society"? wtf? gays having their own subculture is rather new. While gay circles always existed in many historical societies ( and they, unlike todays gays indeed were after young boys ), there never existed an entire "gay subculture", "gay society", as existed now. this "heterosexual society" you're talking about is human society, the general society.

	14-12-2003 02:56									#4
	Get a bigger avatar today!

All it comes down to then, is scapegoating, right?

Heterosexuals have desacralized marriage -- not homosexuals.

	14-12-2003 02:57									#5
	Get a bigger avatar today!

The problems of divorce in het society are not new. It's just that in the past either 1) the laws did not allow divorce, or 2) the woman died in childbirth. I had a techer who once told me that his grandfather had 5 wives, the 1st 4 died in their early-mid childbearing years.
I think also that the more choices & conveniences we have today allows for more freedom in choosing a potential life partner. Higher human pop concentrations, ability to travel, freedom from basic survival needs, etc.

But I think religion has more to do with intolerance towards homosexuality, than lashing out from personal failures in the het community.

	14-12-2003 03:01									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

MrFun:

You would be well advised to continue working on this idea, it's impressive! I would go so far as to add fear of conservatives of each humans homosexual disposition, since early humans would have been very sexually segragated, due to different roles, it is logical to say that we developed or inherited an instictive bisexuality.

	14-12-2003 03:02									#7
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

It all comes down to slippery slope arguments

	14-12-2003 03:10									#8
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

"Conservative heterosexuals" might add to homophobia, but they don't play the important part in creating or maintaining homophobia. I think the root of homophobia is simply sexual insecurity which is, after all, pretty widespread. Whaleboy raises a good point about the fear of each human's disposition for homosexuality but I would apply that concern to every one of us instead of just a narrow selection of bigots. This doesn't mean homophobe equals closet gay, on more occasions it's probably a matter of stating explicitly what you are not in order to help you in the process to understand what you are. I'm pretty sure all homophobes I've ever met were sexually insecure or immature to some point.

You'll know you've gotten rid of intolerance not when politicians or priests stop giving you a hard time in the press but when heterosexuals stop thinking it's necessary to introduce their point of view with the phrase "I'm not gay, but..."

	14-12-2003 03:27									#9
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

I'm tempted to say "not liking faggots".

But that's probably not true.

A number of things I guess. One is that many men feel insecure about their masculinity and see homosexuals as effeminate. While some are, this is definitely not the norm. Most homosexuals I know could only be picked out of a line because they tend to dress better than straight guys.

Another is that younger people enjoy picking on the "different".

Another is the fear of being ****ed up the ass. That's probably the stupidest. Having said that, I used to try to get straight guys to think about how they'd feel if they were pursued by an aggressive homosexual, to give them some insight into what women are talking about when they complain about sexual harassment.

Another is a hangover from the religious view of the world. If sexual deviance is defined as deviance from the purposes of the designer and the purpose of sex is procreation, then homosexuality is by definition deviant.

People might think that defining "good" sex as procreative is a waste of time, but most societies in history has had to find some way of controlling promiscuity as a means of keeping people from each others throats and stopping the production of unwanted children. Now with contraception its not as big a deal anymore. Presumably, homosexuals, who could fornicate without any penalty were seen as bad because mass promiscuity was a socially destructive phenomenon.

Homosexuality wasn't always verboten. Anyone who reads Plato is getting insight into a time when it was considered quite normal.

*edit* You'll be able to tell when homophobia is finished. It will be the day when it's considered normal for gay and straight people to gently poke fun at each other over their differences without anyone taking offence.

Hey Monk, is that sig from the Philosophical Investigations?

Last edited by Agathon on 14-12-2003 at 03:37

	14-12-2003 03:38									#10
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Surely homosexuality is the root of homophobia is the smartarse answer

We could be dealing with several things though, repressed homosexuality manifesting itself as homophobia (lash out at the ones you love the most, so to speak), insecurity with self (not sexuality related but lashing out at others to make them feel better, could apply to any sort of xenophobic behaviour).

	14-12-2003 03:41									#11
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

I thought it was fear of being bummed?

	14-12-2003 03:41									#12
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Agathon Another is the fear of being ****ed up the ass.

By whom? I like being fingered up the ass, but only by girls.

	14-12-2003 03:43									#13
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Provost Harrison We could be dealing with several things though, repressed homosexuality manifesting itself as homophobia (lash out at the ones you love the most, so to speak.

That's no doubt true of some people, but most homophobes I know have a gay rating of zero.

The idea that this is the cause of all of it is propaganda designed to annoy the hell out of homophobes. I agree that they should have the hell annoyed out of them, but not by means of lies.

Anyway, why are so many Apolytoners gay? Is this a notorious gay hang out or something? Maybe its the Greek name (says the guy with the name of a famously gay Greek as his handle).

	14-12-2003 03:43									#14
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by Lazarus and the Gimp I thought it was fear of being bummed?

Yeah, I read your blog. Hilarious as usual....

	14-12-2003 03:44									#15
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by reds4ever By whom? I like being fingered up the ass, but only by girls.

YOU ARE GAY!! YOU ARE GAY!! YOU ARE GAY!! YOU ARE GAY!!

	14-12-2003 03:50									#16
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by Agathon YOU ARE GAY!! YOU ARE GAY!! YOU ARE GAY!! YOU ARE GAY!!

It's the gender of the person that you like to have sex with that defines your sexuallity, otherwise oral sex would make us all bisexual?

	14-12-2003 03:57									#17
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by reds4ever It's the gender of the person that you like to have sex with that defines your sexuallity, otherwise oral sex would make us all bisexual?

Good comeback.

	14-12-2003 03:58									#18
	Suffering from ads?

Perhaps the fact that homosexuality is yucky is a contributing factor to homophobia.

Asmodean

	14-12-2003 03:59									#19
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

It's the assumption by overly-ignorant hetros that all of you people have cooties.

	14-12-2003 04:05									#20
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: What is the fundamental root of homophobia?

vs

	14-12-2003 04:08									#21
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by Asmodean Perhaps the fact that homosexuality is yucky is a contributing factor to homophobia. Asmodean

	14-12-2003 04:11									#22
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Asmodean Perhaps the fact that homosexuality is yucky is a contributing factor to homophobia. Asmodean

That's the same basis as Asmodeanphobia, in that case.

	14-12-2003 04:12									#23
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

This is just swell.
Here I am, trying to bring all people to Christ, and ****ing Berzerker runs them off faster
than I can get them gathered.

	14-12-2003 04:13									#24
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy MrFun: You would be well advised to continue working on this idea, it's impressive! I would go so far as to add fear of conservatives of each humans homosexual disposition, since early humans would have been very sexually segragated, due to different roles, it is logical to say that we developed or inherited an instictive bisexuality.

I still do not know if I can swallow the possibility that all humans are inherently bisexual, with one sexual orientation dominant/prevalent over another.

I guess I need someone to elaborate more on this. But I do agree that everyone has feminity and masculinity traits -- it's just that each individual differs to how these are balanced in relation to one another.

	14-12-2003 04:16									#25
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by Monk "Conservative heterosexuals" might add to homophobia, but they don't play the important part in creating or maintaining homophobia. I think the root of homophobia is simply sexual insecurity which is, after all, pretty widespread. Whaleboy raises a good point about the fear of each human's disposition for homosexuality but I would apply that concern to every one of us instead of just a narrow selection of bigots. This doesn't mean homophobe equals closet gay, on more occasions it's probably a matter of stating explicitly what you are not in order to help you in the process to understand what you are. I'm pretty sure all homophobes I've ever met were sexually insecure or immature to some point. You'll know you've gotten rid of intolerance not when politicians or priests stop giving you a hard time in the press but when heterosexuals stop thinking it's necessary to introduce their point of view with the phrase "I'm not gay, but..."

And even as I use the words "conservative heterosexual" I realize it's problematic because it brings about generalizations. But I do not mean to use the word as if I'm assuming this is a monolithic group of people. I could just use the word "many" or "a number" with "conservative heterosexuals."

But interesting point that you and Whaleboy brought up, about the above-mentioned fear being more universal than just among bigots.

	14-12-2003 04:27									#26
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Mr.Fun is entirely right. The source of homophobia is the romantic desire by heterosexuals for stable marriages that happily last forever! This has to be it! Really!

In truth, marriages are at best temporary and impose undue restraint on man's inanate desire for multiple partners in the interest of women and children. Marriages promote stable relationships and nests for the raising of children at the obvious expense of man's liberty and constitutional right to pursue his sexual nature!

We must throw off our traditionalist thinking in favor of liberal re-evaluation of fundamental beliefs. We must liberate both men and women from conservative ideas!

Once we do this, we can embrace the new man and the new woman. Men can have sex with and marry whom they please. So can women. Unbound by conservative ideas, anything is possible, including polygamy, concubines and mistresses!

Let us all embrace the true liberty! Let freedom ring!

	14-12-2003 04:33									#27
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I think Provost Harrison is the closest so for to the correct answer.

quote: Originally posted by Provost Harrison We could be dealing with several things though, repressed homosexuality manifesting itself as homophobia (lash out at the ones you love the most, so to speak), insecurity with self (not sexuality related but lashing out at others to make them feel better, could apply to any sort of xenophobic behaviour).

I thinks it's somewhat more complicated than that.

Everyone has traits that have traditionally been considered "male" (e.g. ambition, independence) and traits that have traditionally been considered "female" ('e.g. nurturing, tenderness). When we see what society considers to be traits of the other gender appearing in us, it leads to uncertainty and even fear. This gives rise to an urge to show that we are "real men," and that in turn leads to homophobia.

	14-12-2003 04:34									#28
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

MrFun:

You forgot to blame:
Christians
Republicans
Muslims
America
Traditional Family Values
The South
Sodomy law
Bananas
White People
Chlorinated Drinking Water
The Military-Industrial Complex
Heteros


Also, I think that your thesis is weak on why homophobia still prevails in the third world. You're too focused on the modern west.

	14-12-2003 04:37									#29
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by Ned Mr.Fun is entirely right. The source of homophobia is the romantic desire by heterosexuals for stable marriages that happily last forever! This has to be it! Really! In truth, marriages are at best temporary and impose undue restraint on man's inanate desire for multiple partners in the interest of women and children. Marriages promote stable relationships and nests for the raising of children at the obvious expense of man's liberty and constitutional right to pursue his sexual nature! We must throw off our traditionalist thinking in favor of liberal re-evaluation of fundamental beliefs. We must liberate both men and women from conservative ideas! Once we do this, we can embrace the new man and the new woman. Men can have sex with and marry whom they please. So can women. Unbound by conservative ideas, anything is possible, including polygamy, concubines and mistresses! Let us all embrace the true liberty! Let freedom ring!

Do have any intelligent ability to express disagreement with legitimate arguments??

	14-12-2003 04:38									#30
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Timexwatch MrFun: You forgot to blame: Christians Republicans Muslims America Traditional Family Values The South Sodomy law Bananas White People Chlorinated Drinking Water The Military-Industrial Complex Heteros Also, I think that your thesis is weak on why homophobia still prevails in the third world. You're too focused on the modern west.

It's not about just "blaming" one group of people -- it's about the sociological/psychological motivations for various groups of people under "conservative heterosexuals" for hating homosexuals.