15-12-2003 23:23									#91
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Heterosexuality is one of the culturally sanctioned ways we have of making sense of the world, just like religion and language. When the sanctity of these institutions are challenged by others with a minority viewpoint, then there will always be a backlash from those in the majority who are ambivalent about the culturally-sanctioned choices they've made. The very foundation of their existence is being challenged by such a confrontation. They might have to rethink their whole lives as a result. Thats too painful a choice. It's easier to lash out at the minority in such cases.

	15-12-2003 23:35									#92
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quote: Originally posted by Japher I try to say something serious at least once a month... keeps me off certain ppls ignore list

I could never put you on the ignore list.

	15-12-2003 23:38									#93
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quote: I could never put you on the ignore list

Nor I you, though you are the soul reason I am a homophobe

	15-12-2003 23:46									#94
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I have gayness eminating from my soul.....

	16-12-2003 00:02									#95
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People are totally capable of tolerance, but you can stretch this too far. As much as it may offend someones ideology, human binegs like to split people up into recongnizable groups so that they can more easily deal with them. But how many of these groups do they want to make? More and more groups are clamoring for recognition. we are finally seeing some headway in race issues after so much resistance, asking them to accept and tolerate yet another group when they are still struggling with others is just stretcing it.

Basically, homosexuality being out in the open, in this age, is relatively new. It takes decades if not centuries for a group of people who are not open to accepting an idea to get over it, we can expect the same here.

-Pat

	16-12-2003 00:09									#96
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I think most hetero men who have a problem with gays can't get past the idea of anal sex.

	16-12-2003 00:12									#97
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun Well, there are a couple of Apolytoners on here that I perceive as being homophobic. And Shi -- I can't swallow your explanation on why you think secular homophobia is more virulent than hard-religious homophobia.

I am talking about the United States. If this were Palestine, then hard-religious homophobia would be much worse. But here secular homophobia would be responsible for most hate crimes.

	16-12-2003 00:16									#98
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The Cure for Homophobia:

Take homophobe and transplant them to the SF Bay Area, or any major metropolitan in CA... For extreme cases, put them in The Castro District (SF) or Hollywood.

When I got out of HS I was homophobic, but then in College I had several friends come out of the closet... I was disturbed at first, and then realized that they were no different. I have since made friends with ppl I like and don't care much for their sexual preferences. Some of this has to do with my detattchment from religious establishments, as well as the liberal influences obtained through higher education and being in California my whole life, a state which is more accepting of alternative lifestyles.

Thus, religion, education, and society all have a play on whether someone is homophobic or not.

	16-12-2003 00:21									#99
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia I think most hetero men who have a problem with gays can't get past the idea of anal sex.

I think it has more to do with not being able to look at someone else's hairy, sweaty genitals.

	16-12-2003 00:35									#100
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara I think it has more to do with not being able to look at someone else's hairy, sweaty genitals.

But I don't have a problem with gays, and I don't want to see that!

	16-12-2003 00:35									#101
	Re: What is the fundamental root of homophobia? Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by MrFun Does the fundamental root of homophobia lie in individual-oriented psychology, or within a broader sociological factor?? I have thought about this the past few days, and here is what I think. The root of homophobia lies in conservative heterosexuals' desire to externalize an internal problem that is perceived to exist within heterosexual society. In other words, that these particular heterosexuals want to scapegoat homosexuals for what they perceive as being problematic but is originating from within heterosexual society.

I think that this might be true from some. But most of them come from a religous view point that it is just moraly wrong. This may be simple, but that is how many who dont want gay marrage feel for example.

quote: The problem that these conservative heterosexuals perceive, is that marriage as how it has traditionally been held in high-esteem (whether that is mythical history, or historical reality is another question) has degenerated to a mere pact of convenience that can be disavowed if it becomes "inconvenient" to maintain that marriage. Whether or not the sacredeness of marriage was EVER a reality in some past period, is another question. Here, I'm talking about conservative heterosexuals who PERCEIVE this idealized vision of what marriage used to be like, compared to what they perceive the state of marriage today, as an institution. So, this perceived degradation of marriage is not happening because of homosexuals -- it is within heterosexual society that marriage has been degraded -- based on the biased perceptions of conservative heterosexuals. Marriage/family within heterosexual society has long-since changed: 1) 50% or more heterosexuals divorce rather than working out issues that could be worked out in many of these marriages. 2) Heterosexuals are part of the social phenomenon of drive-through, Las Vegas style weddings. 3) There are an increasing number of non-traditional, but still heterosexual-oriented families (foster families, children raised by grandparents, single parent families, and so on) It seems like society might be in a transitional period, where the traditional, agrarian-based family has ultimately failed to adapt to post-industrial, modern society and as a result, there will be fundamental changes in the future (we can't foresee what the results will be though).

First I dont think that they family unit as we know has failed to adapt to changing times. It just show the weakness in character of humans. People always want an easy way out. This has happened in the past as well, not just during our time, allthough I think it is now a much bigger problem. Most people dont have a clue to what marrage is about. Also some people when they pick someone to marry dont make a very good choice.

quote: So, it could be that conservative heterosexuals who are mortified by the above societal factors and developments, see these changes as being completely problematic. Instead of advocating for adapting to new concepts of family to stabliize our society, they argue for holding onto what MIGHT be anachronistic values that no longer apply to the reality of post-industrial modern society. And they seek to hold onto what might be anachronistic concepts of family by externalizing these internal problems within heterosexual society, onto a group of people they can scapegoat -- homosexuals. Rather than face what they perceive to be problems within heterosexual society through adaptation, they want to scapegoat homosexuals to hold onto what might be just sentimental, anachronistic concepts of family. These conservative heterosexuals may be venting their anger about these internal problems of heterosexual society by lashing out against homosexuals.

First off I think this is a generalization that you are making. There are some that try to help people understand what marrage is all about, and that one should not view it so lightly. Also you have to remember, that as far as the government is concerned, many conservivates and I think leberals as well would not like the government telling people what to do.

quote: What does anyone think about these thoughts? Do you have ideas on how this idea can be further reinforced, or do you have a completely different idea from this? And are the changes within heterosexual society towards concept of family simply PERCEIVED as degradation, and is it really just transitory change that could bring either good OR bad results??

I think you have made too many generalizations.
I think that homophobia is much simpler that what you make it out to be. It I think is the same as racism. People fear what is different and thus hate it. And since they hate it, they try to find reasons to hate it. Like people blaming Jews for all kinds of problems the have nothing to do with.

I dont think homophobia is arround because conservatives are looking for a escape goat.

	16-12-2003 00:39									#102
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Sexism is the root of homophobia. Men and women have defined roles within society. Feminists undermine it from one direction, and gays from another.

Nah. sexism was present even when homosexuality wasn't that frowned upon, like ancient greece, etc.

And vice versa, btw.

	16-12-2003 00:41									#103
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quote: Nah. sexism was present even when homosexuality wasn't that frowned upon, like ancient greece, etc.

But all the greeks, and romans for that matter, where gay back then!

	16-12-2003 00:41									#104
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The fundamental root of homophobia is homophobia being unnatural.

	16-12-2003 00:45									#105
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara I think it has more to do with not being able to look at someone else's hairy, sweaty genitals.

Females have hairy sweaty genitals, so your point?

	16-12-2003 00:47									#106
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You've obviously never seen them, so please...

	16-12-2003 00:49									#107
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun Uh . . . . this was not my argument.

u say that lesbians rock cuz men dominate society. but lesbians would rock either way. cuz men and women are different. and that difference doesn't stem from who gets paid more.



case in point, women are not sexually satisfied by watching 2 guys go at it.


so to say that the only reason women who are bi(more accurately) are not disdained is cuz guys rule is pure nonsense.

	16-12-2003 00:50									#108
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I think I have discovered the root of the problem:

	16-12-2003 00:51									#109
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This thread is ***

	16-12-2003 00:51									#110
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quote: Originally posted by Ecthelion You've obviously never seen them, so please...

I did say I have bisexual tendencies, and lots of porn... anyways unless they are shaved there is still a lot of "bush"....

Some gay guys also shave their genital area... a lot actually.

	16-12-2003 00:52									#111
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So you've never seen them in real

	16-12-2003 00:54									#112
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Why would I want to, I'm only attracted to girls above the waistline.

	16-12-2003 00:55									#113
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You would want to if you were a real man, because you'd want to sh@g 'em.

	16-12-2003 01:02									#114
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@Japher

	16-12-2003 01:09									#115
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel Nah. sexism was present even when homosexuality wasn't that frowned upon, like ancient greece, etc. And vice versa, btw.

That doesn't dispute what I wrote, because in that particular case, it was within defined male roles to want young men/teen boys for particuar forms of sexual pleasure. Even in this socety, however, it was still frowned upon to prefer men sexually to women (if you were a man). In man/boy sex, the penis was put between the thighs of the boy. Anal and oral sex was out, unless the boy wanted to be known as a girl man. Men do not allow themselves to be penetrated. To be penetratd was to become a woman, and to be in for some serious social disapproval.

	16-12-2003 01:11									#116
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara That doesn't dispute what I wrote, because in that particular case, it was within defined male roles to want young men/teen boys for particuar forms of sexual pleasure. Even in this socety, however, it was still frowned upon to prefer men sexually to women (if you were a man). In man/boy sex, the penis was put between the thighs of the boy. Anal and oral sex was out, unless the boy wanted to be known as a girl man. Men do not allow themselves to be penetrated. To be penetratd was to become a woman, and to be in for some serious social disapproval.

That's not true... my greek era porn video says otherwise... although there is condom use...odd?

	16-12-2003 01:13									#117
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greek era porn video?

wait, does it have pre-18yos?

	16-12-2003 01:14									#118
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18 to 20... If you are looking for younger it is legal in some European states... but not the US.