14-12-2003 20:44									#151
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten That doesn't make it an "international tribunal" by any stretch of the imagination. I suppose you think the Nuremburg tribunals were "international" as well?

Lets see: prosecutors from the US, UK, France and the Soviet Union all participated...yup, not international at all. Very, very un-international. You could not get less international than that.

	14-12-2003 20:45									#152
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quote: Lets see: prosecutors from the US, UK, France and the Soviet Union all participated...yup, not international at all. Very, very un-international. You could not get less international than that.

What international governing body was it sanctioned by?

It was a war crimes trial presided over by the victors of WWII, not an international tribunal.

	14-12-2003 20:47									#153
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten What international governing body was it sanctioned by?

International governing body? There were none.

*points and laughs at Drake*

	14-12-2003 20:52									#154
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar Will he not be tried in an Iraqi court?

I think they will had him over to the Iraqies to try him. In Iraq remember there are no apeals courts ect to get in the way of the quick death he surely will be given once they convict him in a Iraq court.

	14-12-2003 20:52									#155
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The resistance will now intensify?

Why, because their cause now has no hope. Alot of people have pointed out the a Iraq radicals are not religious, but political. They were fighting in the hopes of ousting the Coalition and reinstating Saddam. Now obviously Saddam wasn't running the resistance, but I bet you all the resistance leaders told their followers that they were in personal comminication with the boss. Now their retarted pipe dream is totally blown open. Resistance might not end, but it will slacken.

-Pat

	14-12-2003 20:54									#156
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quote: They were fighting in the hopes of ousting the Coalition and reinstating Saddam.

Said who?

	14-12-2003 20:56									#157
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Awesome news

This is certainly a good omen for the future of Iraq. Now I just hope this doesn't turn into a propaganda piece. I already saw the dopes on Fox News using this to attack Democrats.

I think he should be tried at The Hague.

Although this is certainly good news for the situation in Iraq, I am not sure how much it will affect the jihadist elements. They hated Saddam and will continue to fight the US. But if this can help stop the Saddam loyalist insurgents, then good. At least it's some progress.

btw, where are WMD's? maybe Saddam will tell interrogators where to find some. Even though I am starting to think they were mostly destroyed and certainly not a threat to the US, it would be nice to at least uncover SOME of them to be sure they aren't in the hands of more bad people.

	14-12-2003 20:56									#158
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I thought saddam was dead.

or so I was told.

	14-12-2003 20:57									#159
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oh btw, who here thinks this might be staged? I mean, its Sunday morning, a lot of America would be watching football today, could he have been in custody already? sorry, just the tinfoil hat guy in me talking... but it certainly is food for thought.

	14-12-2003 20:59									#160
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten quote: Lets see: prosecutors from the US, UK, France and the Soviet Union all participated...yup, not international at all. Very, very un-international. You could not get less international than that. What international governing body was it sanctioned by? It was a war crimes trial presided over by the victors of WWII, not an international tribunal.

what UR said.

The victors of WWII happened to BE the international community (you forget the size of the coolition-everyone in the original UN, created over a year before the Nuremberg trials-was part of the anti-Axis coolition) at the time. The fact that current international tribunals see their legitimacy stemming FROM Nuremberg and use it as a model is evidence to the contrary of what you say. The very fact that the practice of putting on trial the leaders of the defeated nation for these types of crimes (did crimes against humanity even exist before Nuremberg, in a legal sense?) was a huge departure and of great meaning to international law.

	14-12-2003 20:59									#161
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quote: International governing body? There were none.

No kidding. That's why it was impossible for the Nuremburg trials to be considered international tribunals.

quote: *points and laughs at Drake*

I liked you better when you were shamelessly copying MtG and Ming's posting style. Both of them would never be so clueless as to post something like this.

	14-12-2003 21:03									#162
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quote: The fact that current international tribunals see their legitimacy stemming FROM Nuremberg and use it as a model is evidence to the contrary of what you say.

The fact that international tribunals use Nuremburg as a model does not mean than Nuremburg was an international tribunal in any way.

Seriously, if you don't even know what an international tribunal is, why do you go to the trouble of arguing about them?

	14-12-2003 21:04									#163
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Yep your right, maybe they weren't fighting to reinstate Saddam. Maybe they were fighting against he holiday mark ups a departments stores....

Or perhaps they want all white candicanes...

-Pat

	14-12-2003 21:08									#165
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skywalker: that band smiley is scaring me... I'm listening to some Rage against the Machine and the singer is curiously synced with what I'm listening to...

	14-12-2003 21:10									#166
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Sorry not to chime in with other leftists on this one, but I wonder why he should be judged at the Hague. It's the Iraqis who have suffered from him, and I think his trial should be done in Iraq without foreign interference, except Iran's and Kuweit's.

The US will obviously interfere, which is sad. But I wonder why the judgement of this Iraqi murderer should not belong to the Iraqis themselves

	14-12-2003 21:11									#167
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten quote: The fact that current international tribunals see their legitimacy stemming FROM Nuremberg and use it as a model is evidence to the contrary of what you say. The fact that international tribunals use Nuremburg as a model does not mean than Nuremburg was an international tribunal in any way. Seriously, if you don't even know what an international tribunal is, why do you go to the trouble of arguing about them?

The only thing at issue here is YOUR definition of what it takes to be an international tribunal. Nuremberg is the ur-international tribunal, and the case law created there is the genesis for modern international tribunals for Bosnia and Rwanda.

Would this be an international tribunal? Not if the Iraqi government (whenever that comes into being) has full control of the proceedings.

Given that this arguement is based on your definitional problems, I wll move on.

	14-12-2003 21:13									#168
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Sorry not to chime in with other leftists on this one, but I wonder why he should be judged at the Hague. It's the Iraqis who have suffered from him, and I think his trial should be done in Iraq without foreign interference, except Iran's and Kuweit's. The US will obviously interfere, which is sad. But I wonder why the judgement of this Iraqi murderer should not belong to the Iraqis themselves

I would be fine using that court set up by the governing council created under the model of international tribunals. How the interests of Iran and Kuwait are met is an interesting question.

	14-12-2003 21:14									#169
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Not exactly on topic, but I noticed that in many forums that many people are usually critical about the US and especially Bush gov, and the war etc etc, is now congratulating Bush and the troops for job well done. I think it should be remembered, that even some of the creeps who don't agree with us (who supported the war from the beginning) are not always against us......

	14-12-2003 21:15									#170
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quote: Given that this arguement is based on your definitional problems, I wll move on.

Good. I'll go back to reading about the exploits of the international coalition in Iraq.

Seems any group of countries can be considered "international" these days, whether they're actually acting under the guise of an international governing body or not...

	14-12-2003 21:17									#171
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Final point on the trial issue:

If the international community has the right to intervene in the actions of a sovering state to end abuses against human rights and end crimes againt humanity, then said community would seem to be the one best suited for a trial as well. In the end it will be internationa law under which the man will be tried, even if the court ends up being an interal Iraqi court set up specifically to handle such a prosecution.

	14-12-2003 21:17									#172
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Sorry not to chime in with other leftists on this one, but I wonder why he should be judged at the Hague. It's the Iraqis who have suffered from him, and I think his trial should be done in Iraq without foreign interference, except Iran's and Kuweit's. The US will obviously interfere, which is sad. But I wonder why the judgement of this Iraqi murderer should not belong to the Iraqis themselves

Because there is no government in Iraq... plus, Saddam commited war crimes.

BTW, from a US standpoint, if we don't try him in international court, wouldn't that mean he didn't commit any crimes against the international community? The whole US argument is that he was a threat to the international community and that he needed to be "brought to justice". While I might not completely agree with that sentiment, I recognize that it would be important for US credibility to have him be tried at The Hague. Plus, I think that an Iraqi trial would make it easier for Saddam loyalists to do something. How do you filter out Ba'athist elements from the courts? if there are any courts, that is.

No, Iraq needs to focus on rebuilding and creating a government. And we shouldn't let Saddam just sit around and wait for that. Get the guy on trial and put him away. I would like to see him executed, but I know the Hague doesn't have the DP, and that's fine. Let him rot in a Dutch prison.

	14-12-2003 21:18									#173
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I also see nothing that could justify judging him in Hague. the UN completely failed in Iraq since 1991 (and probably even before). I fail to see, how the Iraqi population would accept this.

	14-12-2003 21:18									#174
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten quote: Given that this arguement is based on your definitional problems, I wll move on. Good. I'll go back to reading about the exploits of the international coalition in Iraq. Seems any group of countries can be considered "international" these days, whether they're actually acting under the guise of an international governing body or not...

Just ask the Bush adminitration and the State Department. And again with the "international governing body"

	14-12-2003 21:18									#175
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka Not exactly on topic, but I noticed that in many forums that many people are usually critical about the US and especially Bush gov, and the war etc etc, is now congratulating Bush and the troops for job well done. I think it should be remembered, that even some of the creeps who don't agree with us (who supported the war from the beginning) are not always against us......

but Pekka, the dope mentality in the US is that "they are with us or against us"... meaning everyone who opposed the war is a terrorist.

	14-12-2003 21:20									#176
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Thank Goodness!!


Who cares where he is tried? The f**ker will no longer be involved in the death of innocent people.

This is just great news whatever your politics.


Woohoo!!!!

	14-12-2003 21:20									#177
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quote: If the international community has the right to intervene in the actions of a sovering state to end abuses against human rights and end crimes againt humanity, then said community would seem to be the one best suited for a trial as well.

The international community didn't intervene to end Hussein's abuses...

	14-12-2003 21:22									#178
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Tried at the Hague? He'd have to be imprisoned for at least a while in the Netherlands then right? How do you think the growing Muslim population of Europe is going to take that? Can you visualize the PM of the Netherlands proudly proclaiming: "BRING IT ON" as angry Muslim suicide bombers vent their ire on the streets of Rotterdam?

	14-12-2003 21:22									#179
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How dare you diss the Coolition!

	14-12-2003 21:24									#180
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quote: How dare you diss the Coolition!

I'm not dissing them. I think they did a good thing. However, the Coalition is multi-national, not international.