14-12-2003 21:25									#181
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove Tried at the Hague? He'd have to be imprisoned for at least a while in the Netherlands then right? How do you think the growing Muslim population of Europe is going to take that? Can you visualize the PM of the Netherlands proudly proclaiming: "BRING IT ON" as angry Muslim suicide bombers vent their ire on the streets of Rotterdam?

well if The Hague doesn't want him, then throw him into a box at Gitmo... but I think Europe will most likely want him tried at the ICC.

	14-12-2003 21:25									#182
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Sava:
I could not care less about the US arguments for war and the US credibility. The credibility of the US in this whole affair is zero anyway: anybody that has been interested in the issue knows that all public arguments for war made by the Bushies are mere excuses intended to get support in the public opinion.

And I'm sure the average Iraqi couldn't care less about the US credibility either. Ths US should accept the thanks, and shut up while the Iraqis deal with their past despot as they please.

The capture of Saddam is a grzat opportunity for Iraqis to clean their old demons. Let's not steal it for something as unimportant as the already dead "US credibility"

	14-12-2003 21:26									#183
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove Tried at the Hague? He'd have to be imprisoned for at least a while in the Netherlands then right? How do you think the growing Muslim population of Europe is going to take that? Can you visualize the PM of the Netherlands proudly proclaiming: "BRING IT ON" as angry Muslim suicide bombers vent their ire on the streets of Rotterdam?

I don't think that he would have much support in the Muslim community in Europe. Most Muslims pretty much hate him, don't they?

	14-12-2003 21:26									#184
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten quote: How dare you diss the Coolition! I'm not dissing them. I think they did a good thing. However, the Coalition is multi-national, not international.

quote: Main Entry: 1in·ter·na·tion·al Pronunciation: "in-t&r-'nash-n&l, -'na-sh&-n&l Function: adjective Date: 1780 1 : of, relating to, or affecting two or more nations 2 : of, relating to, or constituting a group or association having members in two or more nations 3 : active, known, or reaching beyond national boundaries

the coalition IS international... DUH!

	14-12-2003 21:28									#185
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO Who cares where he is tried? The f**ker will no longer be involved in the death of innocent people.

I care--I hope he is tried in Iraq for the crimes he committed against Iraqis. I don't see any other alternative being as satisfactory.

	14-12-2003 21:28									#186
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I think the US has made it clear he'll be tried in Iraq.

	14-12-2003 21:29									#187
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Sava, I know what you mean, problem rises when for example many Euros don't share the same view, even if they support the war. Other guy says 'you don't support, you're against' other guys says 'I don't support, I'm not against you though'.. I don't know different ways of thinking.. most people want the same results, most people wanted Saddam out, people just disagree with the methods. But now when that part of the mission is total success, people turn to congratulate, and I don't think they should be turned down, they should be tried to be recruited to the winning team! The ones that are not happy about this, they are true bastards though

Now if the resistance starts to considerably weaken, Saddam would brake down and give some new info, Iraqis would truly get freedom, reconstruction would start well, somehow OBL would be catched in the process.... that would be total victory, terrorists 0 people of the world and allied forces 100. But this is a victory in my eyes already. What I'm saying is, if things starts to get bad again and no new victories are in our near future, the people who now congratulate the troops today, will again start bashing Bush gov. But let's remember today anyway for a day, the 'free world' was victorious and everyone agreed for once in their lives.

	14-12-2003 21:29									#188
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Sava: I could not care less about the US arguments for war and the US credibility. The credibility of the US in this whole affair is zero anyway: anybody that has been interested in the issue knows that all public arguments for war made by the Bushies are mere excuses intended to get support in the public opinion. And I'm sure the average Iraqi couldn't care less about the US credibility either. Ths US should accept the thanks, and shut up while the Iraqis deal with their past despot as they please. The capture of Saddam is a grzat opportunity for Iraqis to clean their old demons. Let's not steal it for something as unimportant as the already dead "US credibility"

as long as the bastard suffers, it's good with me... but the sole purpose of the ICC is to prosecute cases like this. If you don't think the ICC is legitimate, that's fine. Argue that.

But regardless of what most people think about US credibility and how this is Bush's war... it's still an American operation... and it should be handled by the book.

	14-12-2003 21:30									#189
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Sava: I could not care less about the US arguments for war and the US credibility. The credibility of the US in this whole affair is zero anyway: anybody that has been interested in the issue knows that all public arguments for war made by the Bushies are mere excuses intended to get support in the public opinion. And I'm sure the average Iraqi couldn't care less about the US credibility either. Ths US should accept the thanks, and shut up while the Iraqis deal with their past despot as they please. The capture of Saddam is a grzat opportunity for Iraqis to clean their old demons. Let's not steal it for something as unimportant as the already dead "US credibility"

BS Spiffor. All the French need to wake up and realize that they are the ones who screwed up. Its funny how they just keep rattling the same mantra hoping it will be true. I guess France's "credibility" would be to still be supporting Sadaam's regime and "inspections" while the killing fields continued? What a load of crap.

	14-12-2003 21:30									#190
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A lot of you seem to be clueless on the issue of warcrime jurisdiction. The vast majority of warcrimes and crimes against humanity have been and will be tried in national jurisdictions. The ICC by its design is for when there is a lack or other competant (legal meaning of that word) forums WILLING to try a case. Its purpose is to try thoses who are otherwise skating on charges, not to provide a neutral forum for thoses that many other courts want to get their hands on. There is no such lack or forums willing to try Saddam. Iraq has the most charges and damage to deal with, followed by iran and Kuwait, and then many of the coalition members of the 2 gulf wars have a bone or two to pick with him.

	14-12-2003 21:31									#191
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quote: Originally posted by Sava the coalition IS international... DUH!

i think hes trying to say that coalition doesnt constitute world wide effort.

	14-12-2003 21:31									#192
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quote: Originally posted by oedo I also see nothing that could justify judging him in Hague. the UN completely failed in Iraq since 1991 (and probably even before). I fail to see, how the Iraqi population would accept this.

Oedo hit the nail on the head here. The United States is fighting a guerilla war on the ground in Iraq, and our future has a heavy stake in how the operation in Iraq goes. It would be best for our relations with the Iraqi people to give Iraqis the satisfaction of trying him in Iraq, and letting his punishment be meted out by Iraqis. Gaining goodwill among Iraqis is more important then the finer points of international law.

	14-12-2003 21:31									#193
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov I care--I hope he is tried in Iraq for the crimes he committed against Iraqis. I don't see any other alternative being as satisfactory.

Actually I agree. The really important thing is that he is now impotent.

	14-12-2003 21:33									#194
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka Now if the resistance starts to considerably weaken, Saddam would brake down and give some new info, Iraqis would truly get freedom, reconstruction would start well, somehow OBL would be catched in the process.... that would be total victory, terrorists 0 people of the world and allied forces 100. But this is a victory in my eyes already. What I'm saying is, if things starts to get bad again and no new victories are in our near future, the people who now congratulate the troops today, will again start bashing Bush gov. But let's remember today anyway for a day, the 'free world' was victorious and everyone agreed for once in their lives.

Of course... but there's nothing wrong with praising the troops and the admin for this victory but bashing them for something else. Getting Saddam is good, but that doesn't mean that all is forgiven... Halliburton is up to its old tricks, overcharging tax payers and the military (which is treason IMO)... the Bushies still misled the public about the reasons to go to war. And I still don't believe they are on the right track of turning Iraq into a stable country.

Saddam's a nice trophy, but there are still blemishes on Bush's record.

True pragmatics praise Bush for the good and attack him for the bad.

	14-12-2003 21:35									#195
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well looks like we're gonna hear this one for a reaaaaally looooooooong time with reelection coming up and all. Im already tired of this >24hr old news. :-p

	14-12-2003 21:36									#196
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anyone else see the resemblance? maybe they're related, that would explain a few things.

Last edited by Gangerolf on 14-12-2003 at 21:41

	14-12-2003 21:37									#197
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO BS Spiffor. All the French need to wake up and realize that they are the ones who screwed up.

I never pretended my country's position was any more credible than yours'.
Both our countries were pursuing egoistic power interests, and both our countries tried to have the moral high ground in their PR, despite both having lowly intentions.

And I still say it: the average Iraqi couldn't care less about US credibility. Don't steal THEIR symbol.

	14-12-2003 21:37									#198
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hussein is a commie!

	14-12-2003 21:39									#199
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor I never pretended my country's position was any more credible than yours'. Both our countries were pursuing egoistic power interests, and both our countries tried to have the moral high ground in their PR, despite both having lowly intentions. And I still say it: the average Iraqi couldn't care less about US credibility. Don't steal THEIR symbol.

I agree... all these anti-French dopes need to stop their *****ing...

both countries were acting in their own interests... nothing new... GET OVER IT PLATO!

	14-12-2003 21:40									#200
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor I never pretended my country's position was any more credible than yours'. Both our countries were pursuing egoistic power interests, and both our countries tried to have the moral high ground in their PR, despite both having lowly intentions. And I still say it: the average Iraqi couldn't care less about US credibility. Don't steal THEIR symbol.

its all about self interest. It just so happens that our self interest benefited the iraqi peoples interest by accident.

	14-12-2003 21:41									#201
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Let the Kurds and Shi'ites square off on the polo field with his head, just one rule though, his head remains attached to his body and the first team to achieve separation wins...

	14-12-2003 21:42									#202
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor I never pretended my country's position was any more credible than yours'. Both our countries were pursuing egoistic power interests, and both our countries tried to have the moral high ground in their PR, despite both having lowly intentions. And I still say it: the average Iraqi couldn't care less about US credibility. Don't steal THEIR symbol.

You never cease to amaze me. How can I so disagree with you in one post and then so agree in the next one???

No doubt that US prewar public reasoning had very dubious credibility. No doubt that Sadaam needed to go. With French, German, and Russian support the WMD talk could have taken back seat to the real issues. Well, at least we got him...Maybe the Kurds and Shiites will finally get some closure.

	14-12-2003 21:43									#203
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quote: Originally posted by Sava GET OVER IT PLATO!

I'll think about it Just for you and Spiffor

	14-12-2003 21:44									#204
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PLATO: well some countries think that there should be truthful reasons to go to war, and that it should be a LAST resort.

	14-12-2003 21:45									#205
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quote: Originally posted by Sava PLATO: well some countries think that there should be truthful reasons to go to war, and that it should be a LAST resort.

So...12 more years of UN action?? Why didn't we think of that?!?

	14-12-2003 21:48									#206
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Bush has delayed his press conference until 12:15 Eastern Time...

	14-12-2003 21:49									#207
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO So...12 more years of UN action?? Why didn't we think of that?!?

	14-12-2003 22:02									#208
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quote: Originally posted by Sava

I agree. Both yours and my statement are really tired. But...you said it first!

So...

	14-12-2003 22:05									#209
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quote: Bush has delayed his press conference until 12:15 Eastern Time...

He didn't escape, did he ?!?!?!?!


Nah, those kind of things only happen over here.

	14-12-2003 22:07									#210
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