23-12-2003 21:30									#391
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Possible. Maybe the first time "The Necromancer" was driven out of Dol Goldur (Watchful Peace), the first bad guy back in was the Witchking. I was thinking of later, after Sauron had gone back to Mordor.

This Khamul bit is from the "Hunt for the Ring" bit of Unfinished Tales, I think.

-Arrian

	23-12-2003 21:34									#392
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Haven't read Unfinished Tales.

	23-12-2003 21:42									#393
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Glad to see you safe and well, Sprayber. You did go to Iraq, didn't you? Or are you yet to venture forth?

Haven' went yet. Waiting for Febuary to see where and when we go.


Here is a pretty good site for those that like Middle Earth maps. They have some maps that are really detailed


http://www.lotrmaps.cjb.net/

	23-12-2003 22:25									#394
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Jeez... threadjack turned into Tolkien geek center .

	23-12-2003 22:57									#395
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quote: Originally posted by Sprayber Haven' went yet. Waiting for Febuary to see where and when we go. Here is a pretty good site for those that like Middle Earth maps. They have some maps that are really detailed http://www.lotrmaps.cjb.net/

Cheers for that site.

You know I'm not the biggest fan of the war, but I hope you stay safe.

	23-12-2003 23:12									#396
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More:

1. How many Balrogs were there?

2. Who killed them (the killings we know about)?

3. What is the major orc hold of the Misty Mountains?

4. Who's Luthien's favourite dog?

5. What was Sauron's former name?

6. What did the knights of Arthedain wear?

7. What enabled wolves to invade the Shire?

8. Why does Thorin bear the name "Oakenshield"?

9. Faramir is the Thain of what?

10. What was wrong with Peter Jackson's portrayal of the Gates of Mordor?

	23-12-2003 23:22									#397
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon More: 1. How many Balrogs were there? 2. Who killed them (the killings we know about)? 3. What is the major orc hold of the Misty Mountains? 4. Who's Luthien's favourite dog? 5. What was Sauron's former name? 6. What did the knights of Arthedain wear? 7. What enabled wolves to invade the Shire? 8. Why does Thorin bear the name "Oakenshield"? 9. Faramir is the Thain of what? 10. What was wrong with Peter Jackson's portrayal of the Gates of Mordor?

1. I've no idea.
2. Mostly the Valar, and of course Gandalf took care of one.
3. If not Moria, the one that appears in the Hobbit, the name of which I can't recall.
4. *sigh* So bad with names. He was the Hound of Valinor, a gift given to one of Feanor's sons. He rebelled against that son when he was clearly being evil, in order to assist Luthien. He joins Luthien and Beren on their adventure into Angband to get a Simaril, but dies fighting Morgoth's evil wolf thing.
5. Gorthaur?
6. No idea.
7. A frozen river.
8. Dunno.
9. The Shire, that is assuming I'm thinking of the right Faramir (son of Peregrin Took & Eleanor Gamgee).
10. The Gates themselves? Don't remember.

-Arrian

	23-12-2003 23:29									#398
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian 1. I've no idea.

Seven.

quote: 2. Mostly the Valar, and of course Gandalf took care of one.

Gandalf is right. I believe that Ecthelion kills Gothmog using the spike of his helmet and Glorfindel (not the eponymous character in LOTR) kills another during the escape from Gondolin.

quote: 3. If not Moria, the one that appears in the Hobbit, the name of which I can't recall.

Mt. Gundabad

quote: 4. *sigh* So bad with names. He was the Hound of Valinor, a gift given to one of Feanor's sons. He rebelled against that son when he was clearly being evil, in order to assist Luthien. He joins Luthien and Beren on their adventure into Angband to get a Simaril, but dies fighting Morgoth's evil wolf thing.

Huan

quote: 5. Gorthaur?

Correct.

quote: 6. No idea.

A white surcoat with the device of seven stars.

quote: 7. A frozen river.

Yep. During the Fell Winter.

quote: 8. Dunno.

He once used an oak stick as a shield.

quote: 9. The Shire, that is assuming I'm thinking of the right Faramir (son of Peregrin Took & Eleanor Gamgee).

Give that man a hand. :applauds: I'll let you off the fact that Peregrin marries Diamond of Long Cleeve. Elanor Gamgee marries Fastred Fairbairn and inherits the Red Book from Sam.

quote: 10. The Gates themselves? Don't remember.

There is only one set of gates in the film, Narchost and Carchost, the Towers of the teeth. He left out the inner gate, the Isenmouthe.

	23-12-2003 23:34									#399
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Oh, that's right, I did notice that (the lack of Isenmouthe).

Where is the figure of 7 Balrogs from? I got the sense there were many more than that.

-Arrian

	23-12-2003 23:34									#400
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quote: Give that man a hand. :applauds: I'll let you off the fact that Peregrin marries Diamond of Long Cleeve. Elanor Gamgee marries Fastred Fairbairn and inherits the Red Book from Sam.

Damnit.

-Arrian

	23-12-2003 23:48									#401
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian Oh, that's right, I did notice that (the lack of Isenmouthe). Where is the figure of 7 Balrogs from? I got the sense there were many more than that. -Arrian

From one of the Books of lost Tales I believe.

I was right. Initially there were supposed to be hundreds but in "a late note" Tolkien said that there were "at most, seven". BOLT II, p. 213 (fn).

It's a mean question because Tolkien changes his mind. But I'm making these questions hard because people like Drake and yourself seem to need the challenge.

	23-12-2003 23:51									#402
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I don't have Lost Tales. Is there stuff in there that isn't in Unfinished Tales or the Simarillion?

-Arrian

	24-12-2003 00:03									#403
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian I don't have Lost Tales. Is there stuff in there that isn't in Unfinished Tales or the Simarillion? -Arrian

Oh yes, the Fall of Gondolin for one.

	24-12-2003 00:09									#404
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Hmm. I thought I'd read the Fall of Gondolin but maybe I just got a brief overview of the nitty gritty (jealousy of the favor shown to a human leads to betrayal and the sack of the city by Morgoth's forces) from one of the other books. Hrm.

-Arrian

	24-12-2003 00:10									#405
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon He once used an oak stick as a shield. .

During a battle near the door to Moria, during the war of the dwarves and the orcs.

	24-12-2003 00:12									#406
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark During a battle near the door to Moria, during the war of the dwarves and the orcs.

Yes, the Battle of Azanulbizar (sp.)

	24-12-2003 00:15									#407
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"what were the two main Numenorean havens in Middle Earth?


I'm pretty sure Umbar was one. Don't remember the other one.


The other is Lond Daer. (west of Isengard)"

Im quite sure Pelargir was the principle haven of the elf friends among the Numenorians, while Umbar was the haven of the black Numenorians. Not sure about Lond Daer.

Pelargir may have had elvish associations going back to the early second age, when Elves from Lorien departed from their, leaving an Elvish association with Dol Amroth.

	24-12-2003 01:13									#408
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quote: Originally posted by Theben [QUOTE] Originally posted by -Jrabbit In the books they discard the armor once they realize that no one else is around. Sam also gives Frodo his cloak.

You can be assured that the EE will take care of this. The scene where they were conscipted by the orcs was shot...

Makes me sad that I'll have to wait 11 more months for the true version to be released. We are all just watching a very cool trailer at the moment.

	24-12-2003 01:17									#409
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quote: The scene where they were conscipted by the orcs was shot...

That has been confirmed? If so, excellent.

-Arrian

	24-12-2003 01:41									#410
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one more time. I have to know. This isn't a trivia question, I just missed it at the end of the movie.

What happens the the blond chick at the end? I think her name was Eryn or something like that. I'm assuming Aragorn ends up with the brunette chick and they live happily ever after. I thought I saw the blonde chick at the very end getting on the boat, I may be wrong on that though.

And why are the women so white in this movie? . The men have tans, but the women don't.

And no minorities in these movies either for that matter. Yes I know they really wouldn't fit- the books weren't written that way. But I'm curious how this movie makes so much money with no minorities in it. Obviously some minorities are watching and liking these movies.

	24-12-2003 01:50									#411
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Eowen ends up with Faramir (Boromir's brother, they guy who is almost burned alive by dear old Dad, but is saved by Pippin & Gandalf) and lives happily ever after in Ithilien. The problem with the movie is that isn't explained at all - you just get a *very* short shot of Eowen and Faramir smiling at each other during Aragorn's coronation/wedding. I expect the EE will have more (probably the missing "Halls of Healing" chapter).

The blond on the boat at the end is Galadriel, the elf queen of Lothlorien.

As for the whiteness issue, well, Tolkein was writing a psuedo Norse myth (the lands in the story are the extreme Northwest of Middle Earth). He has been accused of racism, due to the whole "good guys are white and Western, bad guys are "swarthy" and from the East and South" thing. All men are products of their day, I figure.

-Arrian

	24-12-2003 01:52									#412
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quote: And why are the women so white in this movie?

It's medieval fantasy. All the women stay inside to cook and stuff .

	24-12-2003 01:56									#413
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okay thanks

I've noticed the use of color in this movie. I can understand it's based of books written many, many years ago, so I'm not complaining.

Everything in Mordor is so dark, and the good guys so white. Most of the Orcs were "dark" as well. Except in Return of the King- you had that one orc with no helmet and head gear who was the ugliest thing I have ever seen. He was fairly pale.

And what exactly were the guys on the boats. I'm assuming they were barbarians. I tend to think in D&D terms, as I know more about D&D than LOTR's.

	24-12-2003 02:03									#414
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident one more time. I have to know. This isn't a trivia And no minorities in these movies either for that matter. .

Well at least in the books:

1. theres a lot about Dwarves, and the need for Dwarves and Elves to get along better together.
2. Theres an almost PC piece about the Wild men of the White Mountains, and how the Rohirrim come to appreciate them.
etc, etc.

	24-12-2003 02:05									#415
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The guys on boats were the Corsairs of Umbar. Kinda barbaric, yeah.

Some of them would have some Numenorean blood in them from waaaaaay back in the second age, when Numenorean sailors made a Haven down there. But those were the "black Numenoreans" as in "bad Numenoreans" who rebelled against the ban of the Valar and managed to get their island (Atlantis, essentially) destroyed. The kingdoms of Arnor (formerly in the area near the Shire, but fallen into ruin by the time of LotR and Gondor were founded by the faithful Numenoreans who fled Numenor just before the fall. Hence, there is a sort of a blood feud going on with Umbar.

The guys on the Oliphaunts were Haradrim... from farther South, or maybe the East, I forget.

-Arrian, geek.

	24-12-2003 02:08									#416
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian The guys on the Oliphaunts were Haradrim... from farther South, or maybe the East, I forget. -Arrian, geek.

Haradrim are described as Southrons in the LOTR. Harad is south of Gondor.

	24-12-2003 02:10									#417
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Here's a harder one. Who dealt Sauron his first defeat as Dark Lord?

I was wrong about this one. It was Tar-Minastir.

	24-12-2003 02:10									#418
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Right, so south of Umbar (which, back when Gondor was stronger, was part of Gondor, right?)

-Arrian

	24-12-2003 02:14									#419
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian Right, so south of Umbar (which, back when Gondor was stronger, was part of Gondor, right?) -Arrian

actually thats kinda vague, at least in LOTR. Harad consists of Near Harad and Far Harad. Umbar is DEFINITELY south of Near Harad. Its on the coast, and the implication seems to be that far harad is inland. So when Gondor conquered Umbar, they did do by sea, and didnt necessarily conquer inland Harad (though they did rule Near Harad in the days of their power, IIRC)

	24-12-2003 02:14									#420
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark "what were the two main Numenorean havens in Middle Earth? I'm pretty sure Umbar was one. Don't remember the other one. The other is Lond Daer. (west of Isengard)" Im quite sure Pelargir was the principle haven of the elf friends among the Numenorians, while Umbar was the haven of the black Numenorians. Not sure about Lond Daer. Pelargir may have had elvish associations going back to the early second age, when Elves from Lorien departed from their, leaving an Elvish association with Dol Amroth.

Nope. You are right about Pelargir being a Numenorean haven and it being that of the faithful. But the faithful were a minority and Umbar and Lond Daer were the main ones.

Lond Daer was originally Vinyalonde. Founded by the Numenoreans

The Elf haven you are thinking of is Edhellond, which is marked on the map. The elvish association with Dol Amroth is that Amroth jumped off it to his doom and that it's next to Edhellond and that Galadriel and Celeborn lived there for a while in a tower by the sea.