18-12-2003 09:18									#31
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been looking a little more at Ozzy's. I'd be willing to play that as well, but only as Zulu

	18-12-2003 09:29									#32
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I just played a bit on ozzy's map as Carts and liked it....

	18-12-2003 09:31									#33
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ozzy's looking at each civ getting a starting tech....

	18-12-2003 09:34									#34
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Ok, to add a twist to the Classical game Deity and I figured we could give out starting techs to players based on their qualities. Here is the list we worked out:

Bronze Working - Greeks
Ceremonial Burial - Byzantines
Alphabet - Carthaginians
Horseback Riding - Gauls
Masonry - Egyptians
Warrior Code - Romans
Pottery - Babylonians

Make sense, pottery(hanging gardens) goes to babylonians, masonry(pyramids) goes to egyptians, bronze(collosus) goes to greeks.

All are level 1 techs, so no huge deal. Its all pretty balanced.

We are also talking about having some civ-specific units. But be careful with it to avoid the mishaps of HOTW3.

	18-12-2003 09:39									#35
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I'm really suggesting we stick to the above named civs. The Zulus shouldn't even be on the map I made. But it screwed up somehow.

I suggest this both for game play and diplo play reasons.

The above civs are more major and representative of the times we draw our inspiration from. Mongols or Zulus just weren't around in the classical world.

As for gameplay I think it is good to have everyone clustered around the Mediterranian. The Zulu start is waaay too far away from the rest of the players, they can just sit down their isolated from the rest of the world. If we play on this map I'm recommending we either make all that southern land desert, or fill it with tough, defensive barbarians.

	18-12-2003 09:56									#36
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What I must ask.. is what exactly a diplo game is to some? Is it trying to re-write history as accurately as possible, adhering to loyally strict and near obsessive benefits & parametres?

As previously discussed with D; I, as many - am personally here to make things interesting out of gameplay recieved definitions for roleplaying, and to have fun striving to be the best. A map is fine enough as universal variable to keep this somewhat in tangent with the real world. Yet if in the end this is all about having our own little destinies further pre-chosen for some arbitrary fantasy; both mentioned purposes of the game take a hit in possibility for everyone.

	18-12-2003 10:14									#37
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I'm happy to play Carts if nonone else wants it especially.

Zylka, I think diplo games start out with real world historical parameters, but like any civ game each time it is played a different history is created. This allows for fantasies that deviate from "real" history.

Some players, like ozzy, like to stick close to real history and post rich cultural stuff and stories that don't always relate to the gameplay.

I personally prefer to tell stories entirely wrapped around the gameplay and use them as a device to communictate or mis-communicate my civ's intentions. I love the power politics in diplo games and that is linked to gameplay.

	18-12-2003 10:26									#38
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I'm the same way - but do enjoy rich history lessons of a new beginning. Like starting on the same face of the earth with an initial bunch of settling people going seperate ways near immediately. Additive restraints are just too.. well, restraining.

	18-12-2003 20:11									#39
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I'm not sure where you are going with this. I'm not trying to recreate an exact replica of real history, though I do think it provides a very interesting and usable guide for games. I try to emulate the real world path of my character in a diplogame, but thats just me, I have no expectation that others do the same.

If this is about me saying you shouldn't play the Zulus that sentiment is 75% gameplay focused and only 25% history/roleplay focused. You were concerned about Russia in the Euro map because they are off by themselves with limitless land to expand to, that is how the Zulu are in the Classic map. You have no one near you at all to compeate for land with, and you've got twice as much good land as any other player. I think that'd be very unbalancing in the game.

Also since in diplogames there is a tendency to sit and grow & build all game until one is unstoppable, any attempt to crowd people in together is a great benefit for a fair and balanced game. Plus a more interesting one.

As for the techs, if you or anyone else really doesn't like the idea, then fine we won't do it, I just figured it would mix things up a bit. Adjust the boring game we've been playing for 8 years now and give it a bit of spice. Giving a bit of local color and civ uniqueness is a good quality for a diplogame. We shouldn't strive to make everything equal for everyone at all times. Thats a goal for a straight war game. In diplogames having a bit of inequality (not a great amount) is good, it enriches the game and provides some more variety.

Like Raz said in the other thread, in HOTW2 he took the Israelis, very much a runt civ, and made them a world power. He had crappy land, a crappy start, and an inept beginning. Plus by his own admission Raz isn't great at straight civ, however he knows how to negotiate and he knows how to play a diplogame very well so he was able to work his way up to a major player in the game. Just like he is doing in HOTW4.

Its about knowing "when to hold them, when to fold them, and when to walk away." Serbs have been doing good in the game so far, their wars with the Tartars have all turned out positive and they got lots of land from it. In this more recent war they got hurt real bad and lost a lot of territory. You can't always fight your way out of a diplogame, its about knowing when to fight and how to implement it.

Even a player stuck in desert or on a small island came come to dominate a diplogame. Eventually.

	18-12-2003 23:13									#40
	Remove this text

Which of these pack are you looking to play and when do you think are logical times for the games to be played. After Christmas I should have more free time, since my contract job will expire.

	19-12-2003 01:13									#41
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Since it looks like we'll have players from around the world again so weekends are basicly the only time everyone can play.

I would prefer saturday mornings eurotime, starting from about 7am gmt as my sundaymornings are usualy filled with deep sleep

	19-12-2003 02:14									#42
	The rebirth of the Gauls Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

It was many years since Toutatis send the heavens crashing down on the lands, destroying everything man had build and killing all but a few man.

After what seemed like eons of winter only a few scattered nomad tribes were wondering the planet looking for signs of life. Untill this year at the equinox two Gaul bands of nomands met each other on the banks of a river. At this excact same moment Bellenos shed hid light over the lands and let the winter melt away.

The Gaul nomads saw this as a sign the fury of the gods was over and they could now stop their wondering ways and start to live as tribes again, making permanent homesteads and start to rebuild their once proud nation.

Would be fun to rollplay in an Asterixian type of setting.

I'll take Gauls on Ozzy's map, if we play Zylka's map I would like to play as either Irish or Dutch.

	19-12-2003 02:39									#43
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Hmm...

Well I was thinknig that since the Gauls have the best land out of any of the civs that whoever the worst player of the bunch is, they should get it. Ya know for balance and such. And are very from the worst player in this bunch, or any other. (thats a compliment)

Though you are interested in roleplaying them...

	19-12-2003 04:33									#44
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Except from the rivers there is not that much difference in civs, Turks, Chartage and Egypt having slightly worse land. I could take any of them if desired, no worries, its just I would think the rollplaying being more fun as Gauls.

	19-12-2003 05:13									#45
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I want Egypt.

	19-12-2003 05:51									#46
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Alright, if we're playing this map and Makeo is Egypt - I'm Carths. Any other choice just screams "bend over"

	19-12-2003 06:39									#47
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I picked Carts. Zylka or atawa should pick Turks, being stronger players.

	19-12-2003 06:48									#48
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We should get a good locked off modpak for this scn. No changes mid-way.

* Let's agree or not on ozzy's starting tech idea (I vote in favour)
*Wonders? (I vote extended Oracle)
* Starting settlers/cities as 2? (I say 2)
* King/Emp or deity level (I vote deity or Emp)
* Extra techs and units? (HOTW additions are good)
* No huts is proposed
* Cities already established at historical starting locations in 4000BC (I agree)
* Tech Rate slowed as per HOTW4 (1/5x harder)
* Some limitation on tech trading? In HOTW4 techs spread so quickly as to nullify the slower tech rate and nullify the efforts of those civs concentrating on Super Science Rates etc
* We need to list out special diplo rules - highlighted from CapTVK's thread (Any variations to be spelt out, like it's compulsory to respond to Foreign Advisor etc etc)

	19-12-2003 06:55									#49
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I can play a lot over the hols, actual times to be advised

USA dates I may play: 21, 22, 26, 27(or HOTW4), 28, 30, 31 Dec and most days for a week after that

We need spreadsheet freak to plot this out

	19-12-2003 09:18									#50
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I thought Turks had good land. Or at least a good opportunity to get land.

	19-12-2003 09:34									#51
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Let's see the latest map if any changes have been made, por favour

	19-12-2003 10:04									#52
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Oh, and I strongly suggest we do something about caravans. Make them much more expensive. Like by 20 sheilds or so. They are becoming unbalancing i think.

	19-12-2003 10:17									#53
	deity the great's .scn of ozzy's .mp Remove this text

here 'tis..

saved as a scn...

* all civs have 60% starting science
* Carts are currently called Indians and Spanish are Persian (FIXED!)
* two settlers each at emp level
* no techs granted to any civ at this stage
* Southern Africa and Eastern Asia is desertified..

* just fixed the civ names...

* just fixed the scn parameters - 15 tech rate (slower); wiped goodie boxes...

* map updated with Spanish Cap at 31/31 and port for Babs...

* revised again... just keeping all the d/l the same file

Attachment: classic_eurodip_b4000.scn
This has been downloaded 1 time(s).

Last edited by deity on 20-12-2003 at 16:02

	19-12-2003 10:43									#54
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AS I understand it:

* Berz wants Babs
* deity will take Romans or Spanish (Zylka wanted Carts)
* Makeo has Egypt
* atawa the French
* ozzy the Greeks
* Zylka the Carts
* Spanish ?

	19-12-2003 10:55									#55
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hmm, i could do saturday mornings. USA EST

	19-12-2003 10:56									#56
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BTW, some players may drop once the schedule is agreed, so Ljube, Dang, Raz and others stay tuned!

	19-12-2003 11:03									#57
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Turks? I didn't see them on the map. If Deity and Zylka both want Carts, I can flip a coin for ya.

	19-12-2003 11:08									#58
	Remove this text

Oh, Friday/Saturday nights are out for me, at least until our other dip game is over

	19-12-2003 11:37									#59
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Ozzy, can you turn 134,60 into a sea square so the Babs can have a decent port city? We have little to be greatful for in this wasteland where desert meets swamps, certainly not the type of land befitting the birthplace of civilisation... We have no science specials!!!

	19-12-2003 11:58									#60
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Alright. Nice to see drastic changes on the map made without consulting the majorly affected civ(s). Deity seems happy to take the Carths even with such changes made, so I'll budge. I'll take Spanish. If the map is changed again without some form of outside consultation, I'll have you collectively castrated