21-12-2003 03:57									#91
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err.. on top of that increased cost, of course. Eager to put that into action

	21-12-2003 04:17									#92
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quote: Originally posted by OzzyKP As for special units, I agree with Frank's concerns. We should be VERY careful, or just not bother. How about we decrease the cost of early units for each civ, but no stats, and no later units. As Frank noted, since wars usually happen later, this may be of limited use. But it'll hopefully be less unbalancing too. How about : Romans - Legion for 30 shields. Carts - Elephants for 30 shields. Egyptians - Chariots for 20 shields. Greeks - Phalanx for 10 sheilds. Spanish - Horse for 10 shields. French - Archers for 20 shields. Babylonians - Tririeme for 30 shields. Romans, carts, greeks and egyptians units all make sense, as they are units each civ used in history. I just assigned stuff randomly for the other 3. What do y'all think? We can have custom names and graphics and such. Stats won't change though.

20 shields archers sound nice but then could I start with warrior code instead of horseback?

No huts, Emp and 2 setts sound fine.

	21-12-2003 06:08									#93
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Friday night, USA is good for me.

	21-12-2003 07:53									#94
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Any restrictions on caravan use is not favoured by me

	21-12-2003 09:32									#95
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Let's make Legion useful and much feared unit.
I suggest attack of 4 and defence of 3 and reduction of cost for Romans.
What do you say?

	21-12-2003 09:54									#96
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On the second thought, maybe even 4 attack and 4 defence for legion.

And city walls more expensive and cost maintenance. And diplomats more expensive.

	21-12-2003 09:57									#97
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And I think huts are fun so they should be included.

	21-12-2003 10:04									#98
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quote: Originally posted by atawa 20 shields archers sound nice but then could I start with warrior code instead of horseback?

I ABSOLUTELY won't have that. This is getting ridiculous, let's not get carried away, people. Ozz, scrap the starting techs or the abilities. We're not playing a fricking full out modpack here.

	21-12-2003 10:10									#99
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Any comments on my legions Zylka?

	21-12-2003 10:15									#100
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Yea, I agree. There is a tendency to get greedy with these things. Could be trouble.

We should pick one or the other. Units might be more unbalancing, so my vote goes for the tech.

	21-12-2003 10:32									#101
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My vote would actually have to be the units, to be honest. Winz, I might agree on a 4/3 legion if we were indeed doing unit mods, but otherwise will have to refrain from supporting such suggestion. And whether or not it's more realistic, a 4/4 Legion would be ridiculous. Get 6 of those approaching any city at once, and you're near surely the conquerer.

	21-12-2003 10:58									#102
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Why do we need either? In the long run it doesn't make much difference but if its the difference between who gets michs because they started with horse then I don't think we should have techs.

	21-12-2003 15:55									#103
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Let's stick to no starting techs; no unit mods.

Leave caravans as is but I think the best control for slowing effectiveness of caras and making every tech stage count is to really slow down the tech paradigm. It's currently at 15 (50% harder) but let's make it 20?

And in the test game we all agreed that atawa had too good a start in France so we are filling it up with swamp

	21-12-2003 15:57									#104
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Another thought, considering it's the classical world around the Mediteannean, is to stop the tech tree at some point? Who ever heard of a flat Earth buiding Magellans or a SS! LOL

	21-12-2003 16:01									#105
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Let's tech-out around the Mobile Warfare, Labour Union, Fundy, Miniaturisation level?

No howies, no cruises, no SETI, etc....

	21-12-2003 16:06									#106
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Call Magellan something else.

And I agree with earlier suggestion about increased sea movement although not critical in this game.

	21-12-2003 16:08									#107
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AND, set the flag forbidding tech from conquest.

	21-12-2003 16:09									#108
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Maybe, limit each player to allying with maximum two other players at a time; and that you can only trade techs with allies... interesting eh?

	21-12-2003 17:59									#109
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quote: Originally posted by Zylka I ABSOLUTELY won't have that. This is getting ridiculous, let's not get carried away, people. Ozz, scrap the starting techs or the abilities. We're not playing a fricking full out modpack here.

Just as ridiculous as you starting with horseback and 10 shield horses

4 defence legions would make them too powerfull imo.

	21-12-2003 18:03									#110
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quote: Originally posted by deity And in the test game we all agreed that atawa had too good a start in France so we are filling it up with swamp

Thanks mate, I would prefer all the peat and spice to the grasslands that are there now

	21-12-2003 18:10									#111
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And with Spain and Romans close by its not even likely I get to use all of what is modern day France with the passage to the east likely blocked by Romans and Spain crossing the Pyrenees.

Btw, apart for the rivers you 1x1x players seem to worship the lands in France aren't better then say Spain.
(Spain with 5 whales, gold and 2 birds, France 2 silk and 1 whale)

But as I said before, if you guys think the combination of atawa and Gauls is too powerfull I'll happily switch to any other civ.

	21-12-2003 18:14									#112
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How about I play Romans?

	21-12-2003 20:23									#113
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I deffinately think we need to do something about caravans and tech trading. Sorry Deity.

Eliminating tech from conquest is a start. Maybe imposing a limit on number of external routes would be good. How about 70 sheild caravans, and no more than 5 routes per foreign civ. Unlimited domestic routes.

I've got no opinion on topping out the tech tree. Maybe stop it before gunpowder! hehe, that won't fly, I know. But I don't care.

As for tech trading between allies, if hotw4 is any guide everyone allied with everyone they met. So that's no barrier. Even enemies allied with each other!

	21-12-2003 22:31									#114
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You cant increase the primary stat of any unit. Period. That totally unbalances the game. Now you can make a unit multipurpose, and that's just fine, but theres no 3 defense units before gunpowder for a reason.

Anyway I'd rather leave the units out, then put them in and have people ***** about them later like HOTW3. I'm going to make a few cosmetic changes, maybe rename some wonders, and adapt from HOTW4s tech tree, with its few units changes / government mods.

	22-12-2003 01:30									#115
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quote: Originally posted by atawa Just as ridiculous as you starting with horseback and 10 shield horses

If you were even a half wit paying attention - you'd note that I'm not wanting either, settling for one if need be by everyone elses demands. Have any more baseless roll eyes in there, champ?

	22-12-2003 01:37									#116
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quote: Originally posted by OzzyKP I deffinately think we need to do something about caravans and tech trading. Sorry Deity. Eliminating tech from conquest is a start. Maybe imposing a limit on number of external routes would be good. How about 70 sheild caravans, and no more than 5 routes per foreign civ. Unlimited domestic routes.

Conquest is already difficult as is on 1x, leave the tech acquisition as bonus or we'll stay a stagnate ballerina party. 70 shield caras sound good. 1.5 tech cost is MAXIMUM I'm willing to increase to. No tech trading always works in rah rules; especially in extended games. It sorts out the weiner civs from spoiling things - ie. Raz from spreading tech against agreement, and myself whipping the TarTars into modernized shape via 5+ aquisitions with a near 0% tech rate.

As Frank mentioned.. it's simply idiocy to adjust unit strengths. Unit costs at maximum, or a starting tech if that's deemed too much.

quote: Let's tech-out around the Mobile Warfare, Labour Union, Fundy, Miniaturisation level? No howies, no cruises, no SETI, etc....

No. Willing to cut out Howies entirely because they're unrealistic as hell, but that's about it.

	22-12-2003 01:42									#117
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quote: Originally posted by Frank Johnson Anyway I'd rather leave the units out, then put them in and have people ***** about them later like HOTW3. I'm going to make a few cosmetic changes, maybe rename some wonders, and adapt from HOTW4s tech tree, with its few units changes / government mods.

Tell me again why we should be playing with Nazi stormtroopers when at that same point people are actively running around with cannons, galleons, and crusaders?

	22-12-2003 07:05									#118
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quote: Originally posted by OzzyKP I deffinately think we need to do something about caravans and tech trading. Sorry Deity. Eliminating tech from conquest is a start. Maybe imposing a limit on number of external routes would be good. How about 70 sheild caravans, and no more than 5 routes per foreign civ. Unlimited domestic routes. I've got no opinion on topping out the tech tree. Maybe stop it before gunpowder! hehe, that won't fly, I know. But I don't care. As for tech trading between allies, if hotw4 is any guide everyone allied with everyone they met. So that's no barrier. Even enemies allied with each other!

What I'm saying is that you are only allowed a maximum of two allies and you can only trade techs with those allies. We must keep some sort of tech trading in the game or it's not a proper diplo game.

I'm happy with Frank's plan on techs/units;
plus get rid of howies OR limit their city walls power and movement down to 1;
caravans stay at 50 shields but limit external routes to 5;
tech paradigm at 15;
eliminate tech from conquest;
increase all sea movement...

atawa can have France, no biggie.


Once Frank has made the changes I'd like to be responsbile for putting together the final modpak if that's OK. Frank does all the creative stuff and I do all the double-checking/quality control of rules.txt etc, before creating a zip of the final modpak for everyone to d/l. Thereafter we should not make any changes. I'll send it to Zylka and ozzy for final approval before posting it. Is that cool?

	22-12-2003 09:41									#119
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I was just thinking (and it hurt a bit) that the GL should be curbed a bit. Maybe expires earlier at Gunpowder, say. It would be way too powerfull otherwise in a tech paradigm 15 game.

I think we should keep all Wonders in to maintain cultural interst but re-name a few and tweak their effects.

	22-12-2003 09:43									#120
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Maybe expire GW at Gunpowder too?