17-12-2003 21:51									#31
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I don't see it as either tasteless or insensitive.

How many people died in the firebombing of Tokyo? In Japanese labour camps?

Weapons kill people because other people choose, or are forced, to use them. EG is just a piece of metal. Should we close all museums that display guns, military aircraft, tanks, warships, etc? I don't think so. Pretending these weapons never existed isn't helpful.

We should stop apologising, or expecting others to apologise, for wars and atrocities ordered by people long dead. But then it is harder to face current issues than argue over the past.

	17-12-2003 21:53									#32
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The most tasteless and insensitive museum exhibit ever?

I guess that would be V.I. Lenin's mummified corpse on permanent display in a glass coffin for ahistoric lefties to worship.

But maybe that's just me.

	17-12-2003 22:01									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Winston The most tasteless and insensitive museum exhibit ever? I guess that would be V.I. Lenin's mummified corpse on permanent display in a glass coffin for ahistoric lefties to worship. But maybe that's just me.

I've seen Lenin's Mausoleum and I don't think it was tasteless. I thought it was done rather well.

	17-12-2003 22:04									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Tripledoc I've seen Lenin's Mausoleum and I don't think it was tasteless. I thought it was done rather well.

Of course you didn't think it was tasteless, since you didn't give his countless victims one single thought while you were there.

That's what I meant when I said ahistoric lefties, you see.

	17-12-2003 22:08									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Winston Of course you didn't think it was tasteless, since you didn't give his countless victims one single thought while you were there.

How exactly do you know that. Are you a mindreader?

	17-12-2003 22:12									#36
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quote: Originally posted by CerberusIV We should stop apologising, or expecting others to apologise, for wars and atrocities ordered by people long dead. But then it is harder to face current issues than argue over the past.

quote: How exactly do you know that. Are you a mindreader?

Your posts.

	17-12-2003 22:23									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon I agree and while that may be disturbing, it's not such a big deal. This is like the Brits displaying a Lancaster and noting that it was used over Dresden without further comment, or the Japanese showing off an artillery piece that was used at Nangking. Hiroshima is the supreme horror of the modern age, to soften it in any way is akin to denying the holocaust - whatever one thinks of the rightness of the attack.

Death is death, dude. It doesn't really matter how you die, just so long as you're dead.

	17-12-2003 22:27									#38
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God if you people really wish to ***** about something from WW2, pick Doolittle's raid on Tokyo. It was the closest we've ever come in launching a 9/11 style assault in both form and purpose.

	17-12-2003 22:29									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon I agree and while that may be disturbing, it's not such a big deal. This is like the Brits displaying a Lancaster and noting that it was used over Dresden without further comment, .

Pretty sure S for Sugar at Hendon was used on Dresden - so what?

Most of the fatalities there were accidental - we couldn't have predicted a firestorm.

Would you rather we forgot these events? It's hard to tell from your posts.

	17-12-2003 22:36									#40
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would it be good to put the Enola Gay in historical context - yes. But a large number of americans, probably the majority, would not consider simply discussing the Japanese vicitims to be a complete context. They would want some discussion of the entire war, including Japanese atrocities, the possible costs of an invasion of Japan, etc. To present the casualties at Hiroshima without that context would be seen by them as a unbalanced presentation. This is precisely the issue that came up when parts of the Enola Gay were previously displayed.

again, the majority of americans do not see this as analogous to Auschwitz. You may disagree, but there it is.


Also the air and space museum displays a number of warplanes, including German, British, etc. It does not discuss civilian victims in those cases, and most Americans would question making an exception for the Enola Gay. As was said above this is an air and space flight museum, not a general history museum.


Of course there you have a larger issue - this museum does glorify aviation, and implicitly air power. and as everyone know, airpower since 1943 and for the foreseeable future is an area of American dominance and a key component of American power. Unfortunately no discussion of the morality of strategic bombing is possible in a veil of ignorance from that fact.

	17-12-2003 22:38									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Hiroshima is the supreme horror of the modern age,

with all due respect im not sure everyone agrees with that statement.

Hiroshima in fact killed fewer people than the firebombing of Tokyo. There was a gradual coarsening of attitude toward civilian deaths on the part of the allies, that started in august 1939. The notion of setting apart Hiroshima is largely due to 2 facts
1. The later construction of larger nuclear weapons capable of destroying all human life - something not entirely foreseeable in 1945.
2. The fact that making Hiroshima, rather than Auschwitz, or the Gulag, the supreme horror of the modern age fitted well with the ideological agendas of certain people during the cold war.

	17-12-2003 22:38									#42
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I oppose the atomic bombings (and the entire war) as much as anybody, but I fail to see how displaying a VERY FAMOUS historical artifact from the war is wrong. It may be insensitive to people who lived through the war, but then again no one forces them to look at it. Personally, I'd definitely go see the Enola Gay - I was disappointed at having missed it at the National Air and Space Museum a few years ago.

	17-12-2003 22:44									#43
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd I oppose the atomic bombings (and the entire war) as much as anybody, but I fail to see how displaying a VERY FAMOUS historical artifact from the war is wrong. It may be insensitive to people who lived through the war, but then again no one forces them to look at it. Personally, I'd definitely go see the Enola Gay - I was disappointed at having missed it at the National Air and Space Museum a few years ago.

I'm not sure it's the display, per se... I think it's the way it is being displayed. I don't oppose displaying the Enola Slowwhand... but it shouldn't glorify the atomic annihilation of 150,000 people, and the thousands that died of radiation poisoning...

	17-12-2003 22:49									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Sava I'm not sure it's the display, per se... I think it's the way it is being displayed. I don't oppose displaying the Enola Slowwhand... but it shouldn't glorify the atomic annihilation of 150,000 people, and the thousands that died of radiation poisoning...

I don't see any evidence it does any such thing. What "glorification" is done? It seems to me that it just presents the history sans any value judgment. Not having seen the exhibit, it's easy to criticize.

I agree with DF--I don't like that we dropped the bombs, but I don't think an air and space exhibit devoted to the aircraft (not even the bomb) needs to be a place to discuss the volatile emotional issues of the bombing.

	17-12-2003 22:52									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov I don't see any evidence it does any such thing. What "glorification" is done? It seems to me that it just presents the history sans any value judgment. Not having seen the exhibit, it's easy to criticize. I agree with DF--I don't like that we dropped the bombs, but I don't think an air and space exhibit devoted to the aircraft (not even the bomb) needs to be a place to discuss the volatile emotional issues of the bombing.

well that's what I took from the article... I guess I shouldn't believe everything I read.

	17-12-2003 22:56									#46
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark Of course there you have a larger issue - this museum does glorify aviation, and implicitly air power. and as everyone know, airpower since 1943 and for the foreseeable future is an area of American dominance and a key component of American power. Unfortunately no discussion of the morality of strategic bombing is possible in a veil of ignorance from that fact.

I don't think everyone knows that airpower is the key to succes and power. I know that dissenting scholars will argue that the key is people's armies. Always has been and always will be. The reason that airpower get so much attention is that it is profitable for scientists to imply that it is.

No nation has been forced by aireal bombardment of strategic assets to surrender. Only when landforces have occupied the centre have nations surrendered. And not even then in all cases.

The reason the Japanese surrendered was that 75 percent of their fishing fleet was sunk and their oil suppply cut off. They had also used up all their reserves of bauxite, used to make alluminium from.

The nukes were simply icing on the cake.

	17-12-2003 22:59									#47
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quote: I don't see any evidence it does any such thing. What "glorification" is done? It seems to me that it just presents the history sans any value judgment. Not having seen the exhibit, it's easy to criticize.

Less we forget... why do ppl always seem to want to sweep the trappings of history under the rug and forget? And get angry when someone reminds them?

	17-12-2003 23:02									#48
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From the article.
"The Enola Gay bears a label describing it as the "most sophisticated propeller-driven bomber of World War II".

History sans any value judgment?

	17-12-2003 23:02									#49
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i have no problem with the exhibit.

i have no problem with the bombings.

i have a problem with people pretending that japan's rape of nanjing or its brutal occupation of korea somehow makes the civilians blameless, when the country was totally militarized and the civilians themselves were complicit in the behavior of the military.

	17-12-2003 23:07									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Tripledoc From the article. "The Enola Gay bears a label describing it as the "most sophisticated propeller-driven bomber of World War II". History sans any value judgment?

Value as in moral value.

	17-12-2003 23:08									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Tripledoc From the article. "The Enola Gay bears a label describing it as the "most sophisticated propeller-driven bomber of World War II". History sans any value judgment?

Does the word sophisticated carry a moral value judgement to you?

	17-12-2003 23:09									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed i have a problem with people pretending that japan's rape of nanjing or its brutal occupation of korea somehow makes the civilians blameless, when the country was totally militarized and the civilians themselves were complicit in the behavior of the military.

Yes, I'm sure the thousands of children of Hiroshima and Nagasaki had previously been clapping delightfully over the horrors of Nanjing.

	17-12-2003 23:16									#53
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quote: Survivors are disappointed the plane is being displayed with no reference to casualty figures at Hiroshima.

I find this totally reasonable. I mean, the label already states that the plane dropped da bomb. What's wrong with adding the number of people it killed?

	17-12-2003 23:23									#54
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quote: What's wrong with adding the number of people it killed?

Because then all the protestors would claim that it is bragging.

	17-12-2003 23:26									#55
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I wouldn't be surprised

	17-12-2003 23:27									#56
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quote: Yes, I'm sure the thousands of children of Hiroshima and Nagasaki had previously been clapping delightfully over the horrors of Nanjing.

of course they weren't clapping delightfully. they were, however, being taught that treatment of koreans and chinese as less than dirt was as it should be, and that being japanese was like being a god.

	17-12-2003 23:28									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Tripledoc I don't think everyone knows that airpower is the key to succes and power. I know that dissenting scholars will argue that the key is people's armies. Always has been and always will be. The reason that airpower get so much attention is that it is profitable for scientists to imply that it is. No nation has been forced by aireal bombardment of strategic assets to surrender. Only when landforces have occupied the centre have nations surrendered. And not even then in all cases. The reason the Japanese surrendered was that 75 percent of their fishing fleet was sunk and their oil suppply cut off. They had also used up all their reserves of bauxite, used to make alluminium from. The nukes were simply icing on the cake.

you will note that i said "a key component" NOT "the key component"

BTW, how do you think the fishing fleet was destroyed and the oil supply cut off - largely by air power, including carrier borne air power. while subs were partly respobsible, submarine bases were moved closer to japan largely due to the victories of US carriers (and land based tactical aircraft) And of course the the Sub base at Midway was saved by the actions of US carriers.

	17-12-2003 23:29									#58
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Gangerolf, I read somewhere that none of the other planes in the exhibit have information on the casualties their service caused, and so the museum would follow that line with the Enola Gay also. They said it was an exhibit focusing solely on the technical and military merits of the various aircrafts.

	17-12-2003 23:32									#59
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I get the expression that this exhibit tried to keep morals/bragging/whatever away to avoid stirring up emotion.

If they instead would put up a sign telling about the tragic loss of innocent life, you could expect a couple of millions of Texans going there to protest

	17-12-2003 23:37									#60
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There is nothing tasteless and insensitive here. It is simply showing a historical artifact. IMO, the protest is utterly stupid.