18-12-2003 01:38									#91
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?

you do realize i meant any exhibit about the bomb itself, as in, documenting the history and development of the manhattan project and so on?

	18-12-2003 01:39									#92
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It was a joke!

	18-12-2003 01:41									#93
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ah. my mistake. i took it seriously as my viewpoint here is obviously not quite in the majority... and i appear to be taking a bit of flak for having that position.

	18-12-2003 01:44									#94
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Understandable, have done the same misstake myself during more or less heated debates. The face with rolling eyes and a stupid red hat makes it quite obvious though.

	18-12-2003 01:55									#95
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no, it doesn't.

the makes it obvious. the is patronizing as if they didn't get you the first time.

'course, it's better than me just deadpanning it, which got me restricted once.

	18-12-2003 02:00									#96
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quote: Originally posted by GhengisFarb No, its not debatable. In recent years the Japanese government has released much of their end of war documentation and paperwork. The History Channel aired a series analyzing some of the info. The most amazing thing I discovered from it was that the two atomic bombs had no impact on the Japanese decision to fight to the death. Their ministry simply readjusted their timetable on when the entire Japanese populace would become extinct and the number of American soldiers they would kill in the process. The actual event that caused the Japanese to surrender was the declaration of war on Japan by Russia. They considered Russia their ally and Russia declared war because they were afraid America would occupy all of Japan after Russia saw the results of the two Atomic bombs.

Not entirely true. The cabinet was still split after Nagasaki and the Emperor ordered the surrender.

	18-12-2003 02:05									#97
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The central question is whether the Japanese would have surrendered with the ONLY condition that they would have retained their emperor. That appeared to be the only condition they asked for when they offered to surrender months earlier. Truman never explored their conditional offer, instead went forward with the bomb. The argument being made by many in his adminstration was that this would impress the Soviets who had been pushing Truman around at Potsdam.

Eisenhower and most of the top military opposed the use of the bomb on human grounds. Eisenhower told Truman this at Potsdam. The top military wanted to accept Japan's conditional surrender primarily to head off the Soviet invasion of China.

Last edited by Ned on 18-12-2003 at 07:48

	18-12-2003 02:08									#98
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quote: Originally posted by GhengisFarb No, its not debatable. In recent years the Japanese government has released much of their end of war documentation and paperwork. The History Channel aired a series analyzing some of the info. The most amazing thing I discovered from it was that the two atomic bombs had no impact on the Japanese decision to fight to the death. Their ministry simply readjusted their timetable on when the entire Japanese populace would become extinct and the number of American soldiers they would kill in the process. The actual event that caused the Japanese to surrender was the declaration of war on Japan by Russia. They considered Russia their ally and Russia declared war because they were afraid America would occupy all of Japan after Russia saw the results of the two Atomic bombs.

First, the History Channel is infortainment--it's not a particularly authoritative source. I've seen them present ludicrous whoppers. Just watch any of their Nostradamus specials, wherein whackos are given credible air time as "experts." The same channel also aired a docudrama about the Japanese cabinet, showing a strong sentiment to surrender from many factions.

Second, your second paragraph makes absolutely no sense if the first were true. Why would Japan care about surrendering once the Russians entered if they were already willing to die, to the last man, to fight an invasion? What difference would it make?

	18-12-2003 02:09									#99
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Agathon:

Re: The most tasteless and insensitive museum exhibit ever

Besides, when you say "tasteless", aren't you implying subjectivity (as taste naturally is subjective); and if so would you not agree that, perhaps, historically, an underlying goal of the study of history has been objectivity? Furthermore, would you suggest that historical revisionism or omissionism serves as a means of correcting social or economic injustices?

Inquiring minds want to know...

	18-12-2003 02:34									#100
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quote: The central question is whether the Japanese would have surrender with the ONLY condition that they would have retained their emperor.

Perhaps, perhaps not... but why would we take a 'conditional' surrender? Did we really want a repeat of WW1, where you still have vestiges of the old regime still around stiring up trouble (Ludendorff being a part of the early Nazi movement)?

	18-12-2003 02:37									#101
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I'd be perfectly fine to amend the exhibit to mention the Japanese losses, once the Japanese government recognizes the atrocities committed by Japanese soldiers in China during the second world war, and starts to teach this historical fact in its school system.

	18-12-2003 02:41									#102
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monolith

	18-12-2003 03:01									#103
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quote: Originally posted by Sava from reading this thread I've learned: glamorizing the murder of civilians is good because the japanese army was bad? but I guess America is so arrogant, ignorant, and heartless to acknowledge that dropping nukes on defenseless civilians wasn't such a bad thing...

You don't get it, do you?? I believe that the nuclear bombings were not justified -- it was nothing but part of the first Cold War political act against the Soviet Union, in my opinion.

BUT at the same time, maintaining objectivity, I also know that Japan would like the rest of the world to focus exclusively on being nuked twice, so we can forget about their crimes against humanity.

	18-12-2003 03:06									#104
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Agathon's in the right on this one, clearly the name of all of the victims, along with their age and address and email contact for current relatives, ought to be posted against this plane.

And when P-51s are shown, we must show respect to all of the Zero pilots by doing the same.

I'm sure everyone cares.

	18-12-2003 03:08									#105
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon There was nothing glorious about that mission. It represents a profound failure of reason on all sides. I don't blame Tibbets and the others who were just doing their job, and I'm not sure I even blame Truman, even though I am not convinced of the military value of the bombing.

Truman was the de jure leader of the American nation. I find the attempt to redeem him questionable.

Firstly the American people, I guess, were not consulted in regard to the actual use of nuclear weapons.

The deployment and use of nuclear weapons have since been a cause of great distress to the human race.

It might be that he was overly influenced by Air General Curtis le May. After all he suggested nukes to be used offensively against China during the Korean conflict. Nevertheles the call was made by Truman. Granted Truman was an apparatjik in the Democratic Party machine, but you would guess that even a vice-president would be able to be aquainted with moral clarity. Maybe that is too much to ask off a clothes dealer?

	18-12-2003 03:09									#106
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of course, asher. we all do. and every microsoft product should list in its credits all the dead husks of companies it's trampled on.

	18-12-2003 03:10									#107
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quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed of course, asher. we all do. and every microsoft product should list in its credits all the dead husks of companies it's trampled on.

But they live on in spirit...just assimilated.

	18-12-2003 04:11									#108
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quote: Originally posted by monolith94 I'd be perfectly fine to amend the exhibit to mention the Japanese losses, once the Japanese government recognizes the atrocities committed by Japanese soldiers in China during the second world war, and starts to teach this historical fact in its school system.

Why should it be *** for tat?

Why can't we be bigger men?

	18-12-2003 04:19									#109
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Because it'd be utterly moronic to list the A-bomb drops and the number of deaths on an air and space display. It's a different story if this was a WW2 museum.

	18-12-2003 04:26									#110
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Because it'd be utterly moronic to list the A-bomb drops and the number of deaths on an air and space display. It's a different story if this was a WW2 museum.

Sure, OK, it would be so much less moronic to ignore the victims of one of history's most horrible events.

And it would be so much less moronic to do this because the victims are supposed to be our friends.

Sure it would be so much less moronic to have found a different plane, one that wouldn't inspire such feeling.

This has traumatized the victims (again) for no real reason.

I've news for some people. World War II is over. The former combatants have largely made their peace with each other long ago. It's time for people to realise that whatever the reasons innocent people suffered because of nuclear weapons, and if we ignore that, we ignore our basic humanity.

	18-12-2003 05:00									#111
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quote: Sure, OK, it would be so much less moronic to ignore the victims of one of history's most horrible events. And it would be so much less moronic to do this because the victims are supposed to be our friends. Sure it would be so much less moronic to have found a different plane, one that wouldn't inspire such feeling.

Yes, yes, yes.

quote: I've news for some people. World War II is over. The former combatants have largely made their peace with each other long ago.

Yeah, we know that. Apparently the Japanese do not.

	18-12-2003 05:03									#112
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: Sure, OK, it would be so much less moronic to ignore the victims of one of history's most horrible events. And it would be so much less moronic to do this because the victims are supposed to be our friends. Sure it would be so much less moronic to have found a different plane, one that wouldn't inspire such feeling. Yes, yes, yes. quote: I've news for some people. World War II is over. The former combatants have largely made their peace with each other long ago. Yeah, we know that. Apparently the Japanese do not.

Most of them do. Anyway, it costs our side nothing to do the decent thing, and it sets the best of examples.

	18-12-2003 05:05									#113
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Hmmm, we can be PC pussies and try never to offend anyone or display the Enola Gay in an air and space museum and we even mentioned it was used to bomb Hiroshima (not like that would have made ANY difference to the protestors anyway). I'll take the latter, thanks.

I mean, really, PC really has gone too damned far.

	18-12-2003 05:09									#114
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I don't think it has anything to do with PC. It's just simple human decency.

	18-12-2003 05:12									#115
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Theya re our friends, NOW.....

We should praise the two nukes, especially the Japanese, for saving 10s of millions of Japanese lives as well as a few million Americans. You can't have your cake and eat it to, ie win agaist fanatical murderors who are the embodiment of evil, and not hurt anyone the process. I am just glad the emperor had some glimor of intelligence to tell his ministers to surrender, becasue even after bieng nuked twice they still wanted to fight!!! And yousay the bombings were not nessesary.

By the arguments above, we should not display any piece of modern technology in any museum because most of it is linked to killing. Being killed by an atomic bomb is no more painful than bieng killed by a conventional one, and in all fairness the US had no idea how much radiation would be produced, because we had never used one before.

Japan is the last people to complain about insensitivity, no Nanking museum in Tokyo. And I do not care what they are now. They are only alive and our freinds now becasue of what we did back then.

-Pat

	18-12-2003 05:13									#116
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quote: I don't think it has anything to do with PC. It's just simple human decency.

No, it's total PC crap. We mentioned it was used on Hiroshima. Now we have to mention what the bomb did and how many died? Please...

	18-12-2003 05:19									#117
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quote: Originally posted by bfg9000 Yeah that is rather insensitive, but I think this one might be more tastless and insensitive. Hitler praying

Weird, considering that Hitler reviled Christianity. He was sort of a born again Wotan-ist. I wonder how the followers of Wotan prayed?

	18-12-2003 05:21									#118
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Nothing wrong with the exhibit. Go whine about something else.

	18-12-2003 05:33									#119
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Agathon's in the right on this one, clearly the name of all of the victims, along with their age and address and email contact for current relatives, ought to be posted against this plane. And when P-51s are shown, we must show respect to all of the Zero pilots by doing the same. I'm sure everyone cares.

Welcome back!

	18-12-2003 05:54									#120
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The Japanese have, almost 60 years after the war, not ONCE apologised for their atrocity's during the war. (China/Korea, Birma RR, East Indian prisoncamps with mass rape etc.)

But then again never have the Americans for locking up Japanese Americans in concentration camps and carpetbombing whole German and Japanese city's. (Not to mention the nuking of Hiroshima and Nagasaki)

Both have a bad trackrecord imo.