20-12-2003 07:33									#151
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Oh, and he could well be fired by the electorate for being too much of a fundie.

	20-12-2003 07:33									#152
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And if a federal employee (say an FBI agent) starts giving sermons to everybody he interviews in the course of his job then the courts will order the FBI to make him stop, whether or not they want to.

	20-12-2003 07:38									#153
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quote: And if a federal employee (say an FBI agent) starts giving sermons to everybody he interviews in the course of his job then the courts will order the FBI to make him stop, whether or not they want to.

During interviews perhaps, because it makes it seem you need to be a Christian to get the job, however, during speeches/briefings to other agents, he can quote all the Scripture he wants.

	20-12-2003 07:38									#154
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse And if a federal employee (say an FBI agent) starts giving sermons to everybody he interviews in the course of his job then the courts will order the FBI to make him stop, whether or not they want to.

That's a point, but an FBI agent is not being paid to give sermons. A politician is being paid to lead. Where that politician leads is between him and the voters, so long as he stays within the bounds of the relevant constitution.

Do you think that PMs of Canada are precluded from expressions involving God?

	20-12-2003 07:42									#155
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quote: You're claiming that he's not bound by the Constitution because his freedom of expression gets him out of jail.

Of course he is, but saying 'God bless America' isn't a law that establishes religion, or even an official act.

quote: He is technically violating the Constitution by endorsing a particular brand of religion while acting in his official capacity.

Bullshit. No Constitutional scholar would even give credance to that argument. A president personally endorsing a religion has nothing to do with legally establishing a religion.

quote: Well, under US law he is quite free to express his religious preferences. He'll have a bit harder time passing laws that shore his God up and exclude the divinities of others. That's the difference.

Bingo.

	20-12-2003 07:42									#156
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I don't mean interviews with potential employees; I meant interviews with victims (had trouble coming up with an example and that was the best I could do when fed employees interact with the public).

quote: during speeches/briefings to other agents, he can quote all the Scripture he wants

Uh...I really don't think that's correct.

1) He's creating some sort of hostile work environment that I'm sure would get shot full of holes by the EEE (is that the right acronym?)

2) He's wasting taxpayer time and money by quoting Scripture while employed by the government

	20-12-2003 07:47									#157
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quote: I meant interviews with victims

Why wouldn't he be able to say things like "God is with you as he was with.... ", etc.

quote: 1) He's creating some sort of hostile work environment that I'm sure would get shot full of holes by the EEE (is that the right acronym?)

Only if they can prove that he is using his religion improperly. Such as him advancing people with that religion or not promoting others.

quote: 2) He's wasting taxpayer time and money by quoting Scripture while employed by the government

Is this a serious argument?

	20-12-2003 07:48									#158
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither That's a point, but an FBI agent is not being paid to give sermons. A politician is being paid to lead. Where that politician leads is between him and the voters, so long as he stays within the bounds of the relevant constitution. Do you think that PMs of Canada are precluded from expressions involving God?

I doubt it, but AFAIK we have no express clause prohibiting government from having anything to do with religion.

As a matter of fact, the nominal Catholic/Protestant public school system which existed till recently in Quebec would have been quite illegal down there.

The difference between here and there is that while they have stronger prohibitions against ties between church and state, our government is actually secular, while theirs tries to find loopholes.

And if you'd read earlier, I wouldn't support any effort to actually enforce some sort of prohibition on stuff like that. It's not worth it, and also is rather dangerous (I'm more inclined to err on the side of freedom of speech for a pol than for anybody else).

	20-12-2003 07:49									#159
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It is interesting that any and all discussions like this end up discussing the United States.

But just one more point or question. What if Chirac were in charge of Iraq instead of the US. Would he try to impose his brand of secularism on the larglely Muslim Iraqi's. If not, why not?

	20-12-2003 07:50									#160
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: You're claiming that he's not bound by the Constitution because his freedom of expression gets him out of jail. Of course he is, but saying 'God bless America' isn't a law that establishes religion, or even an official act.

It's an act by an official in his official capacity, no?

Either: a) he's a rogue agent or
b) he's actually expressing the wishes of government

Which is it?

	20-12-2003 07:53									#161
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quote: It's an act by an official in his official capacity, no?

It is words by an official in a speech. Nothing close to a law or judicial proceeding or any action at all.

quote: Either: a) he's a rogue agent or b) he's actually expressing the wishes of government

Neither. He is expressing his own personal beliefs while acting as President. I don't see what is so hard to grasp about that. Especially when we ask our politicians to express their own personal beliefs in speeches and debates.

Do you consider everything your PM says in a speech (to supporters say) to be official government policy? He makes no jokes during his speeches?

	20-12-2003 07:54									#162
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: I meant interviews with victims Why wouldn't he be able to say things like "God is with you as he was with.... ", etc. quote: 1) He's creating some sort of hostile work environment that I'm sure would get shot full of holes by the EEE (is that the right acronym?) Only if they can prove that he is using his religion improperly. Such as him advancing people with that religion or not promoting others.

No, that's why I said "creating a hostile work environment". Does that apply only to sexual harassment or to other things as well? Say I were to start making sex jokes in class. Even if I don't give people bad marks when they don't respond, I can still be really ****ed by what I've done.

quote: quote: 2) He's wasting taxpayer time and money by quoting Scripture while employed by the government Is this a serious argument?

Uh...duh. If an FBI agent takes his team aside for an hour every day to hold group prayer sessions then I'm pretty sure that the courts would have something to say about it.

	20-12-2003 07:57									#163
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For our recent PM, many of his speeches were jokes, unintentional though they may have been...

The truth will never be the same.

	20-12-2003 07:57									#164
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quote: No, that's why I said "creating a hostile work environment". Does that apply only to sexual harassment or to other things as well? Say I were to start making sex jokes in class. Even if I don't give people bad marks when they don't respond, I can still be really ****ed by what I've done.

Hostile work environment definetly requires more than quoting Scripture while giving speeches he is required to give to his agents. For one, it isn't 'severe' enough. To qualify for severity he would have to give the impression that only those people that follow his religion get promotions.

quote: If an FBI agent takes his team aside for an hour every day to hold group prayer sessions then I'm pretty sure that the courts would have something to say about it.

Strawman, anyone? Who said anything about an FBI agent taking his team aside for a prayer session? We are talking about a speech to agents that an agent makes as part of his job and during it he quotes Scripture. There is nothing wrong or illegal about that.

	20-12-2003 07:57									#165
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Neither. He is expressing his own personal beliefs while acting as President. I don't see what is so hard to grasp about that. Especially when we ask our politicians to express their own personal beliefs in speeches and debates. Do you consider everything your PM says in a speech (to supporters say) to be official government policy? He makes no jokes during his speeches?

When he's talking to supporters then he's not acting on my behalf. He's either talking as head of the Liberals or as a private individual. When he's addressing Parliament then he's acting as PM, and I expect him to be more circumspect.

I'm not sure if Mr. Martin has ever made a joke or not, but I am certain that they haven't been funny.

On the other hand, Mr. Chrétien was quite funny, if unintentionally so.

	20-12-2003 08:01									#166
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Strawman, anyone? Who said anything about an FBI agent taking his team aside for a prayer session? We are talking about a speech to agents that an agent makes as part of his job and during it he quotes Scripture. There is nothing wrong or illegal about that.

Umm. What's the difference between one and the other? Only the amount of time wasted, no?

So how is it a strawman? We all know that the 5 seconds of "God Bless America" isn't a serious issue, but is it different, other than in scale, than giving a 20 minute diatribe on what Deuteronomy says about such and such a topic?

	20-12-2003 08:03									#167
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: No, that's why I said "creating a hostile work environment". Does that apply only to sexual harassment or to other things as well? Say I were to start making sex jokes in class. Even if I don't give people bad marks when they don't respond, I can still be really ****ed by what I've done. Hostile work environment definetly requires more than quoting Scripture while giving speeches he is required to give to his agents. For one, it isn't 'severe' enough. To qualify for severity he would have to give the impression that only those people that follow his religion get promotions.

Again, AFAIK that isn't true. Why would it be that you can get in trouble just for making sex jokes, yet to get in trouble for religion you'd have to give the impression that somebody's going to lose their job if they don't pray along?

	20-12-2003 08:04									#168
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quote: When he's addressing Parliament then he's acting as PM, and I expect him to be more circumspect.

What you expect doesn't matter here. Isn't Martin still talking as the head of the Liberal party? Maybe he'll make a joke or two while giving his speech. Does that make the joke an official government joke?

You cannot seperate the beliefs from the man, and the man has a right to his beliefs under our Constitution. And he also has freedom of speech. Words in a speech don't 'establish' anything.

	20-12-2003 08:06									#169
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quote: AFAIK that isn't true. Why would it be that you can get in trouble just for making sex jokes, yet to get in trouble for religion you'd have to give the impression that somebody's going to lose their job if they don't pray along?

Once again, severity requirement. You can't get in too much trouble under a sexual harassment claim if you make a few infrequent sexual jokes, especially if it the first time you've been informed on.

How is quoting scripture in speeches religious harassment? It isn't nearly 'severe' enough. You need more.

	20-12-2003 08:10									#170
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Words in a speech don't 'establish' anything.

Side issue, but are you still under the impression that "respecting an establishment of" and "establishing a" mean the same thing?

We really need to talk to your English teacher...

	20-12-2003 08:17									#171
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Where that politician leads is between him and the voters, so long as he stays within the bounds of the relevant constitution.

Exactly. The Americans simply don't insist on their politicians keeping God out of their business -many Europeans do.
What would people think if he added some other personal phrase at the end of his speeches. "I love my wife" or "I like vegetables"? He's free to do so, but he is expected to remain official.

quote: Now, I grant that the French have reasons for their approach based in a long history with state and religion and things going wrong when the two mix.

France is one of the countries where separation between state and church goes furthest and has the longest tradition -they'd never introduce religion as a subject on their schools or have the state take taxes for the churches like Germany. I highly doubt such a regulation would be possible here.

Ned,

quote: It is interesting that any and all discussions like this end up discussing the United States. But just one more point or question. What if Chirac were in charge of Iraq instead of the US. Would he try to impose his brand of secularism on the larglely Muslim Iraqi's. If not, why not?

It's too easy to get to the offense for us
I don't see why a country should impose its values on others -do you?

	20-12-2003 08:19									#172
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Side issue, but are you still under the impression that "respecting an establishment of" and "establishing a" mean the same thing? We really need to talk to your English teacher...

Because if you do, then a law prohibiting headscarves in all public places would be fine by you, constitution-wise, right?

	20-12-2003 08:31									#173
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quote: Originally posted by Mazarin Ned, It's too easy to get to the offense for us I don't see why a country should impose its values on others -do you?

Now that is a good question that the US has had to face several times in the last 150 years. We have been the occupying power in

1) the South
2) Cuba
3) Peuto Rico
4) Phillipines
5) Germany
6) Japan
7) South Korea
8) Vietnam
9) Iraq

Our attempt to impose our ideas on the South failed. We tried for about 40 years in Cuba. But once we stopped, Cuba descended into dictatorship. The Philippines was hard, but we won against a guerilla resistance force. We imposed our values and today the Phillipines is fairly civilized. Pueto Rico is still occuppied -- but willing so. Peuto Rico likes being part of the US. Germany, Japan and South Korea are all unmitigate successes. Vietnam was an unmitigated disaster.

Iraq?

The jury is still out. Push comes to shove if the Shi'ites want to create an Islamic Republic. What do we do then?

	20-12-2003 08:41									#174
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I tend to agree with Chirac. It seems to me that human society would greatly benefit if people were "religionless" at least on some social occasions and in some kind of religion-free zones.

	20-12-2003 08:42									#175
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we're back discussing the US -mission accomplished.

I really think that the risks of the Iraq war have been discussed in length in other threads -legitimation of invasions, possible positive and negative reactions in other Islamic countries, etc. no need to go through that here again.

	20-12-2003 08:54									#176
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How can any sane person compare the death penalty to the banning of a scarf.

Well, only the lying scumbags of the Republican Party of course.

Calling republicans lying scumbags is of course a misdemenour.
In all actuality they are a bunch of hellbound motherfvcking azzhole sons of beatches.

And hey, stop fvcking masturbating. It ruins your argumentation.

	20-12-2003 09:02									#177
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quote: Originally posted by Mazarin we're back discussing the US -mission accomplished.

I take it as an admission of the weakness of your case. Sad to see the Poly French contingent fall to UR's level.

	20-12-2003 09:17									#178
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glad to be taken as a representative of the Poly French contingent

	20-12-2003 09:21									#179
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I don't know if you are or aren't and don't particularly care. It's just that the rest of the French Polytubbies dancing around the issue was disconcerting. I mean I normally find Tripledoc stupidly annoying but it got to be a little much.

	20-12-2003 09:29									#180
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It's a shitty law. Kids in a public school ought to be able to express themselves how they want as long as they don't disrupt class. It's not the state's job to prohibit unpopular clothing styles. And headscarves aren't not necessarily bad. Yes, they can signify the subjugation of women, but they can also be simple expressions of culture or religion. Schools should not be banning headscarves, but be teaching kids appreciation for secular freedoms - that they can choose to wear or not wear them.

Last edited by Ramo on 20-12-2003 at 09:38