20-12-2003 05:02									#121
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Don't misinterpret the silence.

All right there, Dan.

Do I have to school you again on why I engage in one-liners lately?

You better watch out...I've got a lot of time on my hands for the next 4 weeks or so.

	20-12-2003 05:02									#122
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Which, when the official is working in his official position, is an official endorsement of religion. Duh. You might not have any way to stop it (I wouldn't consider making it illegal for a pol to invoke deities in his favour), but it's wrong, and I'm very happy that most Canadian politicians avoid it.

I dont see it that way.

its his belief, just like we dont ask u to shed ur beliefs at school. we don't ask u to shed ur beliefs at the job. even if that job is president.

	20-12-2003 05:05									#123
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Please, man. Use "you" and "your". Even though this is a reasonable disagreement, I have trouble taking you seriously when you type like that.

	20-12-2003 05:14									#124
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Anti-Catholic laws? To what are you referring?

Well it's your history.... Legal discrimination against Catholics in the United States existed until 1835- this referred directly to matters of citizenship and holding public office. Unofficial illegal discrimination carried on past that date- the construction of the Washington Monument was suspended because of pressure from the avowedly anti-Catholic 'Know-Nothing' Movement, offended by the gift (!) of a block of marble from Pope Pius IX taken from Rome's Temple of Concord (oh, the irony). The suspension endured 26 years, work being resumed in 1880 and finishing in 1888.

As I recall, one of the targets of the Klan (along with Jews and American citizens of African descent) were Catholics.

At the time of signing the Declaration of Independence, Charles Carroll was forbidden from holding public offices in his home state of Maryland because he was a Roman Catholic. At the time, Catholics were not allowed to teach the young, or to become lawyers.

Anyone who thinks the issue of religion in schools is being overblown should look at the history of education in Northern Ireland- fiercely sectarian and divisive, and in part responsible for the continuing hostility and lack of communication between the Catholic and Protestant communites. I've met Protestants from Northern Ireland who wouldn't go to Catholic areas because they thought they might 'look' Protestant (not even because they wore overt religious symbols) and who honestly believed that Catholic Irish were in part descended from Spanish Armada sailors and did everything the Pope and the Vatican decreed.

	20-12-2003 05:14									#125
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Please, man. Use "you" and "your". Even though this is a reasonable disagreement, I have trouble taking you seriously when you type like that.

inane grammar nazi as a counter argument? mad skill u got there buddy.

	20-12-2003 05:19									#126
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Molly, I have no doubt that Catholics were the subject of discrimination in the US. I am Catholic and have personally experienced it.

	20-12-2003 05:22									#127
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Molly, I have no doubt that Catholics were the subject of discrimination in the US. I am Catholic and have personally experienced it.

Oh, Ned dear, are you sure it was to do with your religion?







(ducks down........ )

	20-12-2003 05:27									#128
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quote: On the back of all US banknotes, even the new ones, is written :*In God we trust*. This is not said by an individual expressing his personnal beliefs, it is the state forcing the belief in a god in the throat of all American atheists.

That is something that's been there for a long time and now a days is a very small infringment on the establishment of relgion. It ain't that big a deal and most atheists don't give a damn about it. No one thinks that is the government forcing anything.

quote: No, that's official endorsement of religion (when he's speaking as the President).

No it isn't. When he is speaking as President he is still an individual. Even the president has free exercise rights and he doesn't give that up when he is speaking.

	20-12-2003 05:28									#129
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quote: Originally posted by molly bloom Oh, Ned dear, are you sure it was to do with your religion? (ducks down........ )

Yes, because it had to do with my parents.

	20-12-2003 05:32									#130
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Well, having "in God we trust" on the money illustrates that at one time America had no problem acknowledging God. Moreover, we then did not view such acknowledgment to be a violation of the First Amendment establishment clause because we thought that that clause had to do with the establishment of "a" particular religion over other religions" as opposed to the establishment of monotheism over atheism or polytheism.

Last edited by Ned on 20-12-2003 at 05:48

	20-12-2003 05:40									#131
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: On the back of all US banknotes, even the new ones, is written :*In God we trust*. This is not said by an individual expressing his personnal beliefs, it is the state forcing the belief in a god in the throat of all American atheists. That is something that's been there for a long time and now a days is a very small infringment on the establishment of relgion. It ain't that big a deal and most atheists don't give a damn about it. No one thinks that is the government forcing anything. quote: No, that's official endorsement of religion (when he's speaking as the President). No it isn't. When he is speaking as President he is still an individual. Even the president has free exercise rights and he doesn't give that up when he is speaking.

On both questions your answers does not present any convincing argument.

How can you say : no one thinks ... This mention is at least a misrepresentation of the US population. And if this is no big deal, I cant see how our two dozens headscarfed girls (out of hundreds of thousand) would be a deal worth such a long thread.

On the second question, may I ask when listening the President, how I discriminate in the speech what comes from the President from what comes from the individual ?

	20-12-2003 05:43									#132
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quote: Legal discrimination against Catholics in the United States existed until 1835

There were very, very few catholics in the United States up to that point anyway. Almost none, as a matter of fact (there were only a thousand or so at the turn of the 19th century). So I think that it wouldn't be worthwhile to overemphasize the legal discrimination during that time. Anyway, I would like to see the specifics on the laws that you mention.

My family moved to the States in 1842. It has been passed down orally that there was discrimination against catholics, but the legal system was impartial.

With regard to the Washington Monument, there was a hiatus due to lack of funding. The precipitating characters were the know-nothings, but the stone from the Pope was stolen, and had no bearing on the construction after that (other than the theft stalled momentum on the project).

quote: At the time of signing the Declaration of Independence, Charles Carroll was forbidden from holding public offices in his home state of Maryland because he was a Roman Catholic. At the time, Catholics were not allowed to teach the young, or to become lawyers.

That was in colonial times! Carroll was a signer of the Declaration of Independence and a Maryland delegate to the constitutional convention, for God's sake! We had a war over freedoms, remember!

Really, there was discrimination, but not by the state, by and large.

	20-12-2003 05:48									#133
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quote: Originally posted by DAVOUT On the second question, may I ask when listening the President, how I discriminate in the speech what comes from the President from what comes from the individual ?

fear not yav to the rescue.

if he sez "gov't should encourage catholicism and fund a public catholic school system. thats a view of state endorsement of rleigion.

if he thanks god or asks his god to bless something he holds dear. that is not.

	20-12-2003 05:49									#134
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quote: no one thinks ... This mention is at least a misrepresentation of the US population.

Well then most people think nothing about it... better . That isn't a misrepresenation of the US population at all. Ask most atheists in the US.

quote: And if this is no big deal, I cant see how our two dozens headscarfed girls (out of hundreds of thousand) would be a deal worth such a long thread.

Because it is a part of their personal religion. Opposing words on a bill isn't a part of anyone's religion.

quote: On the second question, may I ask when listening the President, how I discriminate in the speech what comes from the President from what comes from the individual ?

Use your mind . When you listen to your leaders how do you seperate the office from the person? Just because he is a leader doesn't mean he isn't a person.

	20-12-2003 05:50									#135
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quote: fear not yav to the rescue. if he sez "gov't should encourage catholicism and fund a public catholic school system. thats a view of state endorsement of rleigion. if he thanks god or asks his god to bless something he holds dear. that is not.

YAV to the rescue!

	20-12-2003 05:59									#136
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quote: Originally posted by yavoon fear not yav to the rescue. if he sez "gov't should encourage catholicism and fund a public catholic school system. thats a view of state endorsement of rleigion. if he thanks god or asks his god to bless something he holds dear. that is not.

Thanks for the effort, but you do not visibly clarify the point. If you dont mind I would like Imran answer.

	20-12-2003 06:13									#137
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It's the same answer. Just because he is the President does not mean that he is not an individual as well. When he utters references to God he is exercising his free exercise rights, even in the middle of a political speech.

	20-12-2003 06:13									#138
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what does "yav" mean? I couldn't find it in my dictionary.

The "in God we trust" and "God bless America" stuff just shows that Americans are less rigid in their separation of religion and state than the French: it surely is strange to me, but it reflects different traditions.

What about oaths in France/the US? Do you have a god-related formulation, too, when people are sworn-in? I remember that Schröder was the first chancellor to employ a neutral formulation.

	20-12-2003 06:15									#139
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quote: what does "yav" mean?

Yavoon

quote: The "in God we trust" and "God bless America" stuff just shows that Americans are less rigid in their separation of religion and state than the French

Yes, we have equal respect for free exercise of religion as well. We try to balance both.

quote: What about oaths in France/the US? Do you have a god-related formulation, too, when people are sworn-in?

Only if you want. You can decide not to have a 'So help me, God' when you are sworn.

	20-12-2003 06:17									#140
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Mazarin, Yes our oaths have historically included God. Today they have been softened quite a bit. One no longer has to put his hand on the Bible in court and conclude, "so help me god." But the oath for president of the United States still ends that way.

	20-12-2003 06:18									#141
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quote: But the oath for president of the United States still ends that way.

Only because they wish to. You can opt out of that phrasing.

	20-12-2003 06:51									#142
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quote: Originally posted by yavoon inane grammar nazi as a counter argument? mad skill u got there buddy.

I stopped arguing with you because I don't think this is that important a distinction, but it really does hurt my eyes. So it's not even supposed to be a counterargument, dude. Chill.

And would you please not type it. God damn, you'll be the first non-insane person I put on my ignore list since GP.

quote: No it isn't. When he is speaking as President he is still an individual. Even the president has free exercise rights and he doesn't give that up when he is speaking.

When he is speaking in his official capacity he does not have free exercise of speech. Otherwise, why is it that you're not allowed to tell your boss to **** off at work?

	20-12-2003 06:53									#143
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Well, having "in God we trust" on the money illustrates that at one time America had no problem acknowledging God. Moreover, we then did not view such acknowledgment to be a violation of the First Amendment establishment clause because we thought that that clause had to do with the establishment of "a" particular religion over other religions" as opposed to the establishment of monotheism over atheism or polytheism.

You mean when "In God We Trust" was added to US currency almost a hundred years after 1776?

	20-12-2003 06:55									#144
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui It's the same answer. Just because he is the President does not mean that he is not an individual as well. When he utters references to God he is exercising his free exercise rights, even in the middle of a political speech.

So he is on the job, then jumps off the job for the 10 seconds it takes to utter that phrase, then goes back on the job?



Please...

	20-12-2003 07:16									#145
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quote: Originally posted by Mazarin What does make France appear like a totalitarian society to you?

Uhmmmmm,...

quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Because schools are the State's thing, and that the State does the regulation of what expression and clothing is allowed, and what is not?

Sorry, Spiff, but when I read this I could have sworn I heard an echo of Orwell.

Now, I grant that the French have reasons for their approach based in a long history with state and religion and things going wrong when the two mix. Much of Europe have the same claims, if not more. However, the direction proposed to be taken by the French in this case is completely alien not just to the Yanks, but too many or most Canadians too.

In fact, there was a recent uproar involving Sikhs and the uniform of the Mounties. A lot of people were upset, but in the end the consensus was that it was better to have a Mountie with a scarlet turban than to exclude observant Sikhs from the national police force.

In short, my view would be that no state has any business meddling in the consciences of any of its citizens.

	20-12-2003 07:20									#146
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse So he is on the job, then jumps off the job for the 10 seconds it takes to utter that phrase, then goes back on the job? Please...

Are you intentionally missing his point?

The President's religious views are his or hers to hold, and no one has any business restricting his or her expression of them. It might affect re-election chances though.

	20-12-2003 07:22									#147
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quote: When he is speaking in his official capacity he does not have free exercise of speech.

Of course he does.

quote: So he is on the job, then jumps off the job for the 10 seconds it takes to utter that phrase, then goes back on the job?

When did I ever say that? He is always on the job as President. He is allowed to be a personal individual as well.

quote: Otherwise, why is it that you're not allowed to tell your boss to **** off at work?

Cause he's your boss. You CAN tell him that, but your boss can excersize his right to fire your ass . Bush's bosses (the people) can fire his ass as well, but only every four years... as per the contract .

	20-12-2003 07:25									#148
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quote: The President's religious views are his or hers to hold, and no one has any business restricting his or her expression of them. It might affect re-election chances though.

Uh, are you deliberately missing my point?

When he's on the job, he most certainly is not allowed complete freedom of expression, for the same reason that a company can tell their employees what to wear to work, whether or not they can talk about politics, how they decorate their cubicles, and even whether or not they say "God" at work.

	20-12-2003 07:31									#149
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: Otherwise, why is it that you're not allowed to tell your boss to **** off at work? Cause he's your boss. You CAN tell him that, but your boss can excersize his right to fire your ass . Bush's bosses (the people) can fire his ass as well, but only every four years... as per the contract .

This doesn't make any sense.

You're claiming that he's not bound by the Constitution because his freedom of expression gets him out of jail. I point out that you're not guaranteed freedom of expression when your time's not your own (i.e. when somebody else is paying you for it), and then you tell me that this doesn't matter because you can fire him if you want because of it.

The original point still stands. He is technically violating the Constitution by endorsing a particular brand of religion while acting in his official capacity.

	20-12-2003 07:32									#150
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Well, under US law he is quite free to express his religious preferences. He'll have a bit harder time passing laws that shore his God up and exclude the divinities of others. That's the difference.

Those are the regulations of his job.