23-12-2003 18:55									#31
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quote: For example, if Alexander the Great, or Jesus Christ, or Confucius were never born, history would have gone far off the path it went down in real life. There's no way that geography can explain the effects of Genghis Khan. Occasionally, a single guy can change the world.

What did they change?
Alexander's empire didn't last. He made a big impression but didn't change anything. His conquest didn't change much in comparison with a situation where the Persian empire would have fragmented all of itself, which was very likely in certain regions like Egypt or Greece (where several cities, recognized, on paper, the authority of the Persian king).
As for the Christ, one could say there were many prophets, and another one or another religion could have spawned or imposed itself. There had to be a state religion in the Roman Empire, it switched from Roman paganism to a monotheism, but I don't think it changed that much.
Gengis Khan: What long terms effect did this guy's conquests have? The invasions of mongols in China caused trouble but mongols were assimilated more than anything else, so it didn't trouble China that much. What are the long terms difference between Gengis Khan and an epidemics of plague?

Back to Europe vs. Middle East or North Africa:
The Middle East and Africa were home to very ancient agriculture, which, by being too intensive, led to deforestation (Lebannon) and desertification, thus removing any chance for these countries to remain major players. Again, concerning northern Africa, they didn't benefit from the diversity of cultures Europe had, and this can be in part explained by the lack of barriers in Northern Africa. Britain/France/Spain rivalries, the blooming renaissance in Italy, would not have happened without the English Channel, Pyreneans, Alps, which prevented conquest by a single empire. Switzerland too is explained by geography, and at the time it was born, provided a revolution in military tactics (use of long pikes). Agreed, Switzerland might not exist without a single man (Arnold von Wilkenried) but then wouldn't another swiss have revolted later and won a battle to defeat Austria?

	23-12-2003 18:56									#32
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quote: Even the US couldn't stand him.

You're my favorite little Turk, paiktis. Keep up the good work, kiddo.

	23-12-2003 19:00									#33
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Thanks.

And now the US is delivered and he's in Japan. Where he is also perceived for the spineless dork he is. He can't really escape himself. I mean he works in a place full of women but none of them even dares approach him.
He gets rejected all the time then comes to an internet gaming forum and begs for advice on how to "score" with a Japanese babe.

pathetic anyway you look at it. The perfect duo with Turd sruker. W@nkers extraordinaire, one in the dumpsters of some texan hole the other all alone and miserable in Japan.

	23-12-2003 19:07									#34
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<----- literally

	23-12-2003 19:08									#35
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Well that's all.

	23-12-2003 19:17									#36
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quote: Originally posted by VetLegion I was browsing through a list of significant inventions and discoveries of the last millenium and as we all know - the west is responsible for the majority of them. As a result the west really dominated the last 500 years or so. I'm not suggesting Europeans are superior or anything like that, but when they teach about world history say in China, how do they explain that?

Don't know about China, but it seems that in poor Islamic countries they leave it to the religious leadership to explain the disparity as the difference between good and evil.

	23-12-2003 19:23									#37
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quote: He made a big impression but didn't change anything.

The rise of the Hellenistic Kingdoms wasn't a change?

quote: What long terms effect did this guy's conquests have?

Massive ones. China's population was decimated, it allowed for further melding of disease pools (results in several epidemics) and by bringing the bulk of Asia under one political authority it allowed for communication and trade across the breath of it, without the window to the east that the Mongol Empire allowed its doubtful that the Age of Exploration would have had the force it did historically.

quote: The Middle East and Africa were home to very ancient agriculture, which, by being too intensive, led to deforestation (Lebannon) and desertification

And salinization. That's really hurt Iraq's agriculture. Same sort of stuff goes for a lot of north China, real ecological wreck.

	23-12-2003 19:31									#38
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It wasn't agriculture that led to Lebanon's deforestation ( though it still has woods ), it was it's fine timber.

	23-12-2003 19:32									#39
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT Problem with GGS is that he pretty much discounts the worth and value of ideas and human desires, and essentially turns historical development into little more than the realtor's motto of "Location, location, location!" Nothing is ever that simple.

We've had this argument before, and this is a distortion of Diamond's thesis. Yes, geography is the most important aspect in the long run, given the scope of the past 11,000 years, but the nuances of Western civilization aren't all tied up into it so simply.

	23-12-2003 19:34									#40
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I doubt there is such a thing as "Western civilization". It was just a political term convenient for a time period but expired.

	23-12-2003 19:35									#41
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Alexander's expansion was well after the golden age of Greek civilization. It was in a marked decline after the militarism of Athens following the catastrophic war with Sparta. He created a unified state, yes, but as most historians know, such a thing usually comes during the decline of a civilization and precedes its fall. Considering what happened after Alexander's death, this appears to be true.

	23-12-2003 19:36									#42
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Yopu can say there is "european" civilization as opposed to others but even that isn't accurate since it isn't that homogenious to encompass all and this is also a politically motivated and created term.

	23-12-2003 19:36									#43
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 I doubt there is such a thing as "Western civilization". It was just a political term convenient for a time period but expired.

There is such a thing as much as there is a "Hellenic civilization," a "Sinic civilization" or an "Orthodox civilization."

	23-12-2003 19:38									#44
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quote: He created a unified state, yes, but as most historians know, such a thing usually comes during the decline of a civilization and precedes its fall.

	23-12-2003 19:39									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov There is such a thing as much as there is a "Hellenic civilization," a "Sinic civilization" or an "Orthodox civilization."

And what could be the "defining aspects" of western civilization which even more hilariously it is portraited as having an historical continuity no less.

	23-12-2003 19:43									#46
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quote: Alexander's expansion was well after the golden age of Greek civilization.

Past the peak of Greek culture, (although there was plenty of important scientific and whatnot stuff going on all through the Helenistic period) but hardly past the peak of Greek military power.

	23-12-2003 19:45									#47
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 And what could be the "defining aspects" of western civilization which even more hilariously it is portraited as having an historical continuity no less.

The "defining aspects" are those borne of Western Christendom, as opposed to Orthodox Christendom.

And what about the political "unity" of the Greek city states during the golden age of Hellenic civilization? Oh wait, they were not unified, they were a mass of often-warring city-states...

	23-12-2003 19:49									#48
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But you're not answering my question Boris.
What are the defining aspects of the so called "western civilization". The ones that tell it apart from others, distinctively.

And then there's the hilarity of it having an historical continuity as well.

	23-12-2003 19:50									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Boshko Past the peak of Greek culture, (although there was plenty of important scientific and whatnot stuff going on all through the Helenistic period) but hardly past the peak of Greek military power.

Militarism is not a sign of civilization. On the contrary, it is a herald of its decline. Has no one read Toynbee?

	23-12-2003 19:55									#50
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quote: Militarism is not a sign of civilization. On the contrary, it is a herald of its decline.

So? The Hellenistic states were pretty significant entities (until they became pathetic shadows whose armies could be pushed around by a single Roman envoy) that significantly altered the culture of the Middle East so Alexander's Conquest was hardly historically insignificant (my original point).

	23-12-2003 19:59									#51
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I didn't say they weren't historically significant.

	23-12-2003 19:59									#52
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Untill you answer my question,

it is interesting to noe that the so called "Western civilization" term was born for the first time after the beggining of the cold war and was a clear try to create false unity amongst entities that were different throughout their historical journey. protestantism and catholisim produce different values. even today's US can't be called "western" but mostly because such a term doesnt historically exist.

there can a european societal culture but which itself is false and a creation of even more modern political aims. and isnt correct either.

about the city states, what common aspect existed aside all speaking greek and considering all others as barbarians?
their political systems and values were hugely different within themselves.

	23-12-2003 19:59									#53
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quote: Militarism is not a sign of civilization. On the contrary, it is a herald of its decline

I don't think this is correct. Rome, for example.

	23-12-2003 20:05									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel quote: Militarism is not a sign of civilization. On the contrary, it is a herald of its decline I don't think this is correct. Rome, for example.

That is a prime example of it. Roman civilization's golden age was the Republic. Then came the Time of Troubles, which was the civil wars and rise of the dictators. The unified state of Empire was a reaction to that crisis--the solution was the rise of an extreme Roman militarism and great geographical expansion. But Roman civilization's great achievements were behind it. The Empire was the beginning of the end. There was an Indian Summer under the 5 good emperors, but otherwise it was a cultural decline and fall.

	23-12-2003 20:05									#55
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Sure, Paiktis. Keep saying places like the US, Australia, Canada, and Brazil aren't western.

	23-12-2003 20:06									#56
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quote: Rome, for example.

Or China.

	23-12-2003 20:07									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Sure, Paiktis. Keep saying places like the US, Australia, Canada, and Brazil aren't western.

Any reply?

	23-12-2003 20:26									#58
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Huntington's 8 Characteristics that define Western Civ:

Classical legacy
Western Christianity
European languages
separation of spiritual and temporal authority
rule of law
social pluralism and civil society
representative bodies
individualism

I think these are pretty accurate. No other civilizations prior had possessed all of them, certainly.

Your grief over the term "Western Civilization" is incorrect, as it was in common usage before the cold war. Toynbee, among others, was using it in the 1920s and 1930s.

	23-12-2003 20:30									#59
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I think he forgot rationalism and the scientific method.

	23-12-2003 20:30									#60
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Boris: The Republic was EXTREMELY militaristic, certainly much more so than the empire.