23-12-2003 21:22									#91
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 and society's too. the motive is to try and inject unity and a feeling of belong for political aims and societal needs.

I understand that US history does that, but Western Civilization does the opposite. It gives us a sense of belonging to a whole civilzation, not just the US.

	23-12-2003 21:23									#92
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Sure pattycakes... now go back to the sandbox to play.

The fact that the US is the epitome of 'Western Civilization', saying it ain't 'western' displays your level of ignorance.

	23-12-2003 21:24									#93
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how can the french revolution being comapred as having the same civilizational pattern as the evolutinary monarchic pattern of england?

how could "western civ" have started in hellenistic times or have in its basis the athenian golden age?

how can protestant work ethic be paralleled to orthodox ascesism?

manufacturing a theory doesnt make it so.

	23-12-2003 21:25									#94
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui The fact that the US is the epitome of 'Western Civilization', saying it ain't 'western' displays your level of ignorance.

It rather shows your self delusion.

	23-12-2003 21:26									#95
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 how can the french revolution being comapred as having the same civilizational pattern as the evolutinary monarchic pattern of england?

Western Civilization is a term used to talk about history and society. It's helpfull. There is no political motive for it, and you haven't presented one.

	23-12-2003 21:28									#96
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Western Civilization is a term used to talk about history and society. It's helpfull. There is no political motive for it, and you haven't presented one.

cold war was what pumped it

societal needs is what gave it birth

but cant create what has never existed
the fragmaneations are too many and too diferantiantial to be grouped under one theoretic roof

	23-12-2003 21:31									#97
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and the US certaintly isn;t a part of the very very very lose definition of a european culture, which the closest that can come to the non existant "western civ"

and as i said even that european civ isnt really apparent and unified to a degree that it would differantiate it from others.

	23-12-2003 21:32									#98
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 cold war was what pumped it

Americans were talking about their connection to a civilization from the time they got off the first ship. They just didn't call it Western Civilization yet.

At any rate, Russia was included in my Western Civ classes.

	23-12-2003 21:32									#99
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and certaintly not historically

	23-12-2003 21:34									#100
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 and certaintly not historically

	23-12-2003 21:35									#101
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Americans were talking about their connection to a civilization from the time they got off the first ship. They just didn't call it Western Civilization yet.

exactly.

and i doubt the panspermia of the people who went to the new world had one unifying and sufficiently differantiantional aspect of cultural homogenity that would make them "one group"

	23-12-2003 21:37									#102
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious

historically there is myriad of different social/politismical entities evolving in wthat is by some called "Western civ" . none of which can be unifying udner one continuation or one group in their historical intinerrary by any given set of characteristics.

	23-12-2003 21:37									#103
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 exactly. and i doubt the panspermia of the people who went to the new world had one unifying and sufficiently differantiantional aspect of cultural homogenity that would make them "one group"

You're taking unity to the absolute. No two people are absolutely unified. It's relative. The Europeans were more unified with each other than they were with the natives and the slaves.

	23-12-2003 21:38									#104
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that's necessity

	23-12-2003 21:39									#105
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 historically there is myriad of different social/politismical entities evolving in wthat is by some called "Western civ" . none of which can be unifying udner one continuation or one group in their historical intinerrary by any given set of characteristics.

And the people who use the term don't claim that what you say is false, but you still haven't shown any political motivation.

	23-12-2003 21:40									#106
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they used it after a specific time, not before.

	23-12-2003 21:40									#107
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 that's necessity

It's natural, because they were part of the same civilization.

	23-12-2003 21:41									#108
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rather having similar aims

	23-12-2003 21:42									#109
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 they used it after a specific time, not before.

So?

	23-12-2003 21:42									#110
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so it's made up to serve after goals.

	23-12-2003 21:44									#111
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 rather having similar aims

They didn't just have similar aims. They had many similarities. That's because they were part of the same civilization.

	23-12-2003 21:44									#112
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 so it's made up to serve after goals.

Connect the dots for me please?

	23-12-2003 21:44									#113
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they had to survive and conquer. that hardly makes them the same.

	23-12-2003 21:46									#114
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Connect the dots for me please?

simplification for theory's sake is the damage

societal and political needs is the cause


it's easier to simplify to explain but to an extend that you create something that cant be historically sustained it's stupid.

	23-12-2003 21:46									#115
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 they had to survive and conquer...

Other civilizations.

Right.

	23-12-2003 21:49									#116
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 simplification for theory's sake is the damage

What damage? What exactly are you getting at?

	23-12-2003 21:49									#117
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natives. it's not a play of civs

but a play of newcomer versus already established

	23-12-2003 21:51									#118
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious What damage? What exactly are you getting at?

the damage to historical and even contemporary truth, the damage to the inerpratation and view of our world.

having the wrong lenses influences your real reactions to it.

	23-12-2003 21:57									#119
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Have we reached the point where paiktis demands the Elgin Marbles should be returned to Greece yet?

(I assume that is where this is going - an attempt to rubbish any moral, aesthetic or historical sense countries, including Britain, thought of as being part of western civilisation may have)

	23-12-2003 21:58									#120
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 the damage to historical and even contemporary truth, the damage to the inerpratation and view of our world. having the wrong lenses influences your real reactions to it.

I don't think that using the term damages our understanding of history. Not one nation has reached the achievements that Western Civilization has reached together. That is the purpose of using the term, to understand history, and why the nations, considered part of Western Civilization, are the way they are, and what similarites they have.

Western Civilization is huge and there are differences among nations and peoples. There are the same differences here in the US. Utah has a mormon heritage. California does not, but will you argue that the two states are not of the same civilization?