24-12-2003 05:18									#212
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well davout did say something of essence actually. it stands for that period of time for that particular region. but no further than that time and definitely not further than that geographical era.

all others were a bunch of lies for the cold war.

now its over so to hell with it

	24-12-2003 05:19									#213
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Anyway, nobody can really understand the workings of history until they can explain just why a large proportion of the world's pre-eminent scientists, philosophers, politicians, architects, artists, generals, dramatists, poets, mathematicians and orators all turned up in one stinky little town in a backward area of the world over a period of just over 100 years.

Take your average small US city of about 50,000 people and imagine that during your lifetime the following people live there at some point and are active - and it's a small town, so you probably know or are related to most of them.

People like: Lincoln, Rommel, Einstein, Kant, Shakespeare, Descartes, Russell, Tolstoy, Goethe, Rodin, Rembrandt, Machiavelli, Napoleon, Jefferson, Franklin, Godel, Wren, etc.

That's what 5th-4th century Athens must have been like.

	24-12-2003 05:19									#214
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten quote: a bunch of illiterate farmers who did a bit of boating now and then That's the best description of the Greeks that I have ever heard.

See my post above.

	24-12-2003 05:25									#215
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quote: one stinky little town in a backward area of the world

That's the best description of Athens that I have ever heard.

	24-12-2003 05:26									#216
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BTW cerbecious, yeah I'm sure that say denmark had a huge colonial empire

that chezhs and whiterussians had huuuuge differences in any given timeframe

your theory is a bunch of bullshite for internal concumption.

you may need it, none other does (apart some inferior feeling yankees ) and thats all

	24-12-2003 05:27									#217
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten quote: one stinky little town in a backward area of the world That's the best description of Athens that I have ever heard.

also very high crime rate from what I hear, at least in atlanta

	24-12-2003 05:37									#218
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there was only one country which got the central focus of greek teachings and transcended into enlightnment ->france.

all others were stunt men sticks with minumum contributions and certaintly such a spiritual movement didnt reach all of europe (we're not even talking US here) uniformaly to a point where it would be deemed as "one civ"

so you wanna say that france is the "western civ" with some minor sidekicks?

be my guest.

	24-12-2003 05:41									#219
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also imran seems to be confused one more time. despite the lack of time frame, he keeps rambling about "liberal democracy"

might you tell me the differences with representative democracy? and do you know the differences between say a social democratic representative system and a ethnonationally based state functioning?
they are both "liberal democracies" you know LOL and they both belong in the "west" (which doesnt exist)

and might you tell me how totally the same "liberal democracies" of say italy or greece with sweden's loooooong transperancy traditions going back even before the enlightnemt have in common? or colombia's "western civ" attributes with say israel's?


its a hilarious concept but doesnt exist "western civ" never was such a thing except for a very minor time frame in a very limited number of sociopolitical entities.
others have developed either with very minor impact or completely autonomously - and thats all within the non existant "west" (and of course beyond)

i agree about westerns though. funny movies and a distinctive genre. those who need a "western civ" are those who a) have none b) are afraid of feeling looonely the poor guys.


well get over it, it's a new world and old lies dont work anymore

Last edited by Bereta_Eder on 24-12-2003 at 05:53

	24-12-2003 05:51									#220
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quote: also imran seems to be confused one more time. despite the lack of time frame, he keeps rambling about "liberal democracy" might you tell me the differences with representative democracy?

Liberal democracy is based on a series of human rights which are enshrined. It isn't mob rule, but protects the minority with rights. This is the difference between liberal democracy and earlier democracies.

	24-12-2003 05:55									#221
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: also imran seems to be confused one more time. despite the lack of time frame, he keeps rambling about "liberal democracy" might you tell me the differences with representative democracy? Liberal democracy is based on a series of human rights which are enshrined. It isn't mob rule, but protects the minority with rights. This is the difference between liberal democracy and earlier democracies.

then the US apparently isnt one, whereas finland for example is.

	24-12-2003 05:55									#222
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quote: then the US apparently isnt one, whereas finland for example is.

nice troll . Obviously you've never heard of a Bill of Rights.

	24-12-2003 05:57									#223
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non mon amie, not a troll different nuances in what you like to call a "western civ" something which never existed as you mean it and which by the way you mean it doesnt include many countries including the US.

	24-12-2003 05:57									#224
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Where that Stefu's troll song?

	24-12-2003 06:01									#225
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well do you have porovisions for a second official language?

oh right, you dont even have one. and you claim to be a part of "europe's civ"

anyway the matter isnt about the US, youre simply a sideeffect. the point is about the existance of a "western civ" in europe which obviously is only a big lie or at least very one dimensional.


now if you want to feel in company go talk to the mexicans or the canadians. with europe, you're through, never were close anyway.

the issue at hand is the "Western civ" as a specific european time frame and location which is indeed accepted. from then on and before that ,from that place and beyond that, its the chaos my friend

	24-12-2003 10:39									#226
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon That's BS. Intellectual property is a recent development. And it doesn't follow anyway, most of the world's greatest music was composed when there either wasn't IP or enforcement was lax. And "Western Civilization" is a silly idea. The east and west weren't that different 500 years ago - so the Classical inheritance thing is a bit silly. The real explanation is probably quite mundane.

Patents were invented by the Venetions in the 1400's to protect glass making inventions. From there it spread all over Europe, but primarily in Germany and England.

Copyrights became important with the printing press.

Composers were largely employed by the Aristocracy and did not make money off their works. That came with Rock and Roll.

	24-12-2003 12:00									#227
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui [Liberal democracy is based on a series of human rights which are enshrined. It isn't mob rule, but protects the minority with rights. This is the difference between liberal democracy and earlier democracies.

By what, word of God? if you get a big enough mob, you can change any law or constitution of the land. You can even define a certain group of people as enemy of the people (or something like that) and put them in concentration camps (or worse).

	24-12-2003 12:08									#228
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It has been shown that a General Staff of elderly men is capable of sacrificing quite a lot of people. In fact a proper general staffe would only have people in their 70s to 90s.

Now, i think that the socalled East, or Third World, have as of yet, not been willing to bring the same sacrifizes to bear.

	24-12-2003 14:11									#229
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quote: Originally posted by debeest Moreover, it's completely fallacious to state that most of the achievements of the last millennium have come from the West. But as they say, the winners write the history. Here in the West, ruling the world, we claim the achievements regardless of who actually achieved them. Think we'd be anywhere without the Arabic numeral system? Want to back up a second and consider whether you'd consider Arabs part of the Western world?

Hell, I'll back up two seconds and consider whether the Arabs actually invented the "Arabic" numeral system.

	24-12-2003 14:12									#230
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Composers were largely employed by the Aristocracy and did not make money off their works. That came with Rock and Roll.

Well Scott Joplin made a fortune off of his ragtime compositions around the turn of the last century, so its at least 50 years older than Rock & Roll.

	24-12-2003 15:12									#231
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 BTW cerbecious, yeah I'm sure that say denmark had a huge colonial empire that chezhs and whiterussians had huuuuge differences in any given timeframe your theory is a bunch of bullshite for internal concumption. you may need it, none other does (apart some inferior feeling yankees ) and thats all

Maybe, but on the other hand, taking a phrase, giving it your own definition - which no-one else apparently shares with you - and then claiming the phrase is meaningless because there is no evidence or argument to support the definition you have assigned it is not exactly reasoned debate, merely a pathetic attempt to confirm one's prejudices.

Try a proper, rational argument next time - unless, of course, you're just trolling.

	24-12-2003 20:58									#232
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Europeans got lucky for the most part- i that too hard to understand? people rebel against the idea that things not under their control lead to thier victory- it must be somehting deep and good and ... why?

The Europeans were stuck on a dinky part of Eurasia with little room to go- so they sailed the seas, something the big wide empires of the east had little rational reason to do (why should the Chinese spend all this time sailign about?), and found a new land full of peope unable to beat back Eurasia's bugs- and the beginning was laid.

So Europe can thank smallpox and the measels and all those disease that came out of human-animal intereactions in China and India for thier dominance.

	24-12-2003 21:56									#233
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Thank you, GePap.

Love your sigs, too.

	24-12-2003 23:12									#234
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Europeans got lucky for the most part- i that too hard to understand? people rebel against the idea that things not under their control lead to thier victory- it must be somehting deep and good and ... why?

I would not call that luck but rather winning something not anticipated, expected or imagined. It is not without merit since you need to be where the *something* appears. Columbus was on its way to decidedly discover something, and he discovered (unfortunately ) small isles close to America. Darwin was on a routine trip around the world, with precise directives on what he was supposed to do. He did his job and much more, taking advantage of a situation that did not result of luck, whith his own intelligence and eagerness to understand the world.
Another problem with luck, is that it leads to consider the unlucky events, which could be roughly estimated to equal in number, magnitude and effects to the lucky ones.

	25-12-2003 02:44									#235
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Western civilization was dominant during the time of the Romans and later after the discovery of the new world. In the case of the Romans, it was their form of government that lead to their superiority. Even the Romans understood this. In modern times, it was trade and competition that lead to the discovery and development of the new world and to contacts with India and China, etc. But that alone did not lead to dominance, as that was a byproduct of technological development that was caused by education (Martin Luther), the printing press, competition, patents and the rule of law.

	25-12-2003 02:49									#236
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Western civilization was dominant during the time of the Romans and later after the discovery of the new world. In the case of the Romans, it was their form of government that lead to their superiority. Even the Romans understood this. In modern times, it was trade and competition that lead to the discovery and development of the new world and to contacts with India and China, etc. But that alone did not lead to dominance, as that was a byproduct of technological development that was caused by education (Martin Luther), the printing press, competition, patents and the rule of law.

How exactly did Rome show its superiority over the Eastern ways exactly? Rome ruled its bit of the world, just as the Persian ruled hier bit of the world ( abigger bit actually), and the Chinese.

As for education- the new wave of learning begun independent of the reformation- maybe you can argue it leads to greater literacy, but not the scientific method or technological advancement. As for "patent law" - it comes into being well after Western ominance has been laid.

	25-12-2003 02:55									#237
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quote: Originally posted by DAVOUT I would not call that luck but rather winning something not anticipated, expected or imagined. It is not without merit since you need to be where the *something* appears. Columbus was on its way to decidedly discover something, and he discovered (unfortunately ) small isles close to America.

Had Columbus crossed the ocean and gotten were he wanted to go, all he would have done is begun a new profitable trade route, like the crossing of the cape of Good hope a few years before- but trade with the East would never have yileded the unimaginable resources that Europe gained access to in the Americas.

quote: Darwin was on a routine trip around the world, with precise directives on what he was supposed to do. He did his job and much more, taking advantage of a situation that did not result of luck, whith his own intelligence and eagerness to understand the world.

Darwin sailed when western dominance was clear and well established

quote: Another problem with luck, is that it leads to consider the unlucky events, which could be roughly estimated to equal in number, magnitude and effects to the lucky ones.

Why certainly- Eastern states facd lot of bad luck, specially happening to be in the ay of great nomadic waves of invasion- the last and biggest one hit most of Eurasia pretty bad, except for lucky Europe. NO, bad luck is as important as good luck, which is simply saying luck (better said as random chance) has a bigger importane in life than we humans dare admit, for it throws all sorts of monkey wrenches into our meaning-filled and highly moralized universe.

	25-12-2003 02:59									#238
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quote: Had Columbus crossed the ocean and gotten were he wanted to go, all he would have done is begun a new profitable trade route, like the crossing of the cape of Good hope a few years before- but trade with the East would never have yileded the unimaginable resources that Europe gained access to in the Americas.

That isn't luck, though - it's geography

Which is why GGS still holds

	25-12-2003 03:02									#239
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Its luck and geography-after all, a nice simple storm could have come and Columbus would be caput- or he could have been killed on shore, or any of the endless possible ways his voyage could have ended, as so many forgotten voyages have, destroyed.

And in a sense, the luck OF geography

	25-12-2003 03:06									#240
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quote: Its luck and geography-after all, a nice simple storm could have come and Columbus would be caput- or he could have been killed on shore, or any of the endless possible ways his voyage could have ended, as so many forgotten voyages have, destroyed.

However, inevitably more voyages would have been sent.