24-12-2003 01:37									#181
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quote: and there wasnt a corelation of english and french philosophers which gave it birth.

Of course there was. The writings of Locke, Rousseau, Voltaire, etc all were joined together to give birth to the first liberal democracy, the US.

	24-12-2003 01:39									#182
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Of course it did and of course it did.

it existed in forms before you "Developped it" lol

quote: Still have the basic tenants of liberal democracy.

and youre still only thinking in one dimensional theoretic way, like there is one liberal democracy. like spain's franco decades long reign or ukraines orthodox-communist patronalistic political system or i presume that's simply embarassing exceptions

quote: Yes, Japan. Western Civilization is obviously spreading so more and more countries are embracing more liberal democratic reforms.

emposed by SOME of victors of WW2 is not the same as tranfusing "western civ" which doesnt even exist.

	24-12-2003 01:42									#183
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Of course there was. The writings of Locke, Rousseau, Voltaire, etc all were joined together to give birth to the first liberal democracy, the US.

what kind of weed are you smoking? is that what they teach you in the US? all of what you label "liberal democracy" has been achieved in many countries and with many completely different ways which resulted in thoroughly different political and societal outcomes. whereas in other parts of the "west" they werent even invented but transfused in the same way they were outside the "west"
and of course it didnt start OR finish with volrtaire or lock or rousseau which were based on teachings that spanned continents as well and had also found practical applications outside "the west" too

	24-12-2003 01:46									#184
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meanwhile inside your one dimensional (and non existant) "west" thoroughly different political discoveries were taking place which had nothing in common with the "true western" type of political developments which you claim as unified and wholesome and homogemious in its final experimental results.

	24-12-2003 01:46									#185
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Imran, in order to beat paiktis at this, you too have to abolish all efforts at logic and reason. Forget what you know because knowledge keeps you down. Rise above meaning man, and let the nonsense flow

	24-12-2003 01:49									#186
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there's simply no way in proving a "Western civ" the differences, the journeys etc are too different and widely more far reaching. i can see you might need it in the US but that only makes it funny

	24-12-2003 01:50									#187
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quote: it existed in forms before you "Developped it" lol

Forms of A are not the same as A. Of course you wouldn't know that .

quote: like spain's franco decades long reign or ukraines orthodox-communist patronalistic political system or i presume that's simply embarassing exceptions

Who ever said that a civilization had to have the EXACT same advances? So when Athens did something (such as their demo-cracy) and Sparta didn't, did that mean that there was no Hellenic culture?

quote: emposed by SOME of victors of WW2 is not the same as tranfusing "western civ" which doesnt even exist.

Japan could have shed it aside if it wanted. If you want talk about imposing values, then why do areas like the ME not have liberal democracy, but places like India do?

quote: all of what you label "liberal democracy" has been achieved in many countries and with many completely different ways which resulted in thoroughly different political and societal outcomes.

Name one. Liberal Democracy was created in the west, spread first through the west and then spread by the west. No other country outside of the west generated it itself.

	24-12-2003 01:55									#188
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Forms of A are not the same as A. Of course you wouldn't know that .

There isn't one A

quote: Who ever said that a civilization had to have the EXACT same advances? So when Athens did something (such as their demo-cracy) and Sparta didn't, did that mean that there was no Hellenic culture?

Yes if you define hellenic culture by the application of democracy. greeks didnt even have a national identity untill the persian wars and even after only a very shaky. kind of like your "Western civ" huh? only that besides a common enemy greeks spoke the same language and considered everyone else as a barbarian. thats about it.

quote: Japan could have shed it aside if it wanted. If you want talk about imposing values, then why do areas like the ME not have liberal democracy, but places like India do?

No it couldnt. and imposing is NEVER the same as embracing.

the ME is a pawn of many different powers, it didnt have the political autonomy for independent political developments as india had.

quote: Name one. Liberal Democracy was created in the west, spread first through the west and then spread by the west. No other country outside of the west generated it itself.

there are many kinds of liberal democracies, and none of them was developed in the "west" since such a thing simply doesnt exist as a unity. many arabic chalifates, or even armenia had similar systems long before rousseau was born.

	24-12-2003 02:05									#189
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have you ever heard of the extra institutional factors of social consent? do you know what they are or that they co-0exist with what you label (and doesn exist) as "one" liberal democracy? they produce a vastly wide margin of different applications to the point of annulling said political system or at least change its character dramatically. to the point that it can be paraleled to other political systems without the same name. and all this happens in your (non existance" "west"
you obivously know only one thing and that's the US. that's a nothing compaired to the rest of the world and how it operates. you ar stuck in labels that are far too restrictive to even approach reality

	24-12-2003 02:10									#190
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and of course all those different socioipolitical results are the outcome of hugely different historical journeys and experiences within and outside of your "west" to the point that they annule its uniquness or unity. (which as said was only a funny stunt after the cold war)

	24-12-2003 02:10									#191
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Boy, you guys need to let go of the argument about whether or not there's such a thing as Western Civilization.

I still say that the themes explored in Guns, Germs, and Steel are the predominant factors. Of course the book doesn't explain everything. It deals with the grand sweep of human "history" -- the last 11,000 years or so. Effectively its explanations culminate in the ability of European invaders to conquer the flourishing civilizations of the New World. Its inability to explain more recent times in greater detail is my greatest dissatisfaction with it, but it would be unrealistic to expect further explanation over the past few hundred years, which are a small fraction of human "history" riding on top of the iceberg momentum of the previous 10,000 years.

European-descended populations may now control the world, but you'd better be ready to argue with the rather numerous and powerful Chinese about that. If so, it's primarily because, at the point in history when guns and steel and navigational skills and governmental characteristics had been invented (in many parts of the world), Europeans were in the best geographic location to take advantage of them by pillaging an entire two continents which were effectively unused (because only recently populated), and were effectively depopulated by accident by European germs.

As any good scientist knows, no great discovery is made without "standing on the shoulders of giants." The list of great accomplishments starts long before Western Civilization (real or imagined) existed. All of the accomplishments which are claimed for Western Civilization in this thread share one common trait: they're MODERN. The MODERN achievements tend to be concentrated,or at least claimed, more in "Western civilization" precisely because the MODERN world is dominated by those of European descent. At other times in world history, other cultures dominated and could just as easily have asked "why do all the great things come from our civilization?" In another 500 years, if human civilization still exists, someone somewhere, quite possibly from a dominant civilization NOT descended from Europeans, will probably ask the same kind of question.

	24-12-2003 03:44									#192
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The reason that China failed to become the dominant culture of the last half of the last millenium is simply that their culture developed an attitude of disdain for progress, trade and other cultures. This attitude was a product of Confucian philosophy, primarily stemming from a love of rigid order. This same philosophy by the second millenium also eschewed the martial virtues. The resulting decline in Chinese military prowess led to China being ruled by dynasties of foreign origin during the last 800 years of the empire.

	24-12-2003 03:44									#193
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: there is no such thing as liberal democracy being born out of the body of a unified single "western civ". Yes there is. After the US developed it from ideas from French and English philosophers, it spread to the continent.

Imran, he's either trolling or has a very, very narrow definition of the term "western civ." Hope you're having fun jumping through Paiktis' hoops.

	24-12-2003 03:44									#194
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Western Civilisation - a loose term to describe a group of nation states, later expanded in number by the independence and growth of former colonies, characterised by the cross fertilisation of ideas, particularly in the fields of scientific research, finance, industrialisation and political thought, from the late 16th century onwards. Marked by the rise to global domination of the "member" states concurrent with the political and military stagnation of other competing powers, until the losers began to adopt "western" ideas and practices during the 20th century.

Now often denigrated as a concept or identity by writers (and Apolyton posters) whose national and cultural identities were occupied and/or sidelined by the rise of the European and American industrial powers.

Simple enough for you?

	24-12-2003 03:45									#195
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quote: Originally posted by debeest European-descended populations may now control the world, but you'd better be ready to argue with the rather numerous and powerful Chinese about that.

Chinese? They are busy westernizing themselves at moment. How much of traditional Chinese culture is still alive in China? How about its government form, its people's moral code, its people's education, its people's dress, its religion, its societal structure, its family structure, and its art? When China rises again, which I'm quite sure about, it won't be the China that you know from the history, but a China that has throughly accepted Western values and ways.

quote: As any good scientist knows, no great discovery is made without "standing on the shoulders of giants." The list of great accomplishments starts long before Western Civilization (real or imagined) existed.

The number of Western scientific accomplishments are many times of all previous accomplishments combined.

quote: All of the accomplishments which are claimed for Western Civilization in this thread share one common trait: they're MODERN. The MODERN achievements tend to be concentrated,or at least claimed, more in "Western civilization" precisely because the MODERN world is dominated by those of European descent. At other times in world history, other cultures dominated and could just as easily have asked "why do all the great things come from our civilization?" In another 500 years, if human civilization still exists, someone somewhere, quite possibly from a dominant civilization NOT descended from Europeans, will probably ask the same kind of question.

The difference is that the accomplishments of last 200 years were magnitudes higher than the previous 5800 years combined.

It never ceases to amaze what a bunch of self-loathing/self-depreciating masochists these Euros/Lefties are.

	24-12-2003 03:48									#196
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quote: Originally posted by CerberusIV Western Civilisation - a loose term to describe a group of nation states, later expanded in number by the independence and growth of former colonies, characterised by the cross fertilisation of ideas, particularly in the fields of scientific research, finance, industrialisation and political thought, from the late 16th century onwards. Marked by the rise to global domination of the "member" states concurrent with the political and military stagnation of other competing powers, until the losers began to adopt "western" ideas and practices during the 20th century. Now often denigrated as a concept or identity by writers (and Apolyton posters) whose national and cultural identities were occupied and/or sidelined by the rise of the European and American industrial powers. Simple enough for you?

And let's not forget that these ideas and impulses arose in the countries of "Western" Europe (as opposed to Eastern Europe), which itself is but a minor prominatory on the, you know, west side of asia. Hence "West." See Paiktis?

Hell, if the Europeans didn't have some power and organization, they could've never rammed through the idea that Europe is an actual continent, rather than just a very big peninsula attached to a real continent.

	24-12-2003 04:05									#197
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Dr. Strangelove, your explanation for China's lack of dominance is similar to Jared Diamond's in Guns, Germs, and Steel. I found it inadequate when I read the book, and I still do, but I have no alternative explanation other than China's distance from the New World. I won't argue the point, but I consider the current status to be simply a fluctuation in historical time. It's been different in the past, and it's likely to change again.

	24-12-2003 04:10									#198
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quote: The reason that China failed to become the dominant culture of the last half of the last millenium is simply that their culture developed an attitude of disdain for progress, trade and other cultures.

Agreed. The Chinese had massive fleets that went to Africa in the 1400s. By the 1600s, they weren't sailing even as far as Singapore. They just grew fat and happy and sat on their laurels. It is what happens if you aren't challenged by other countries to be better.

	24-12-2003 04:13									#199
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What happened over the past millenium is not to say that the Chinese won't invent warp drive and be the first nation to visit a neighboring star. It is merely to point out how we happened to arrive at the current situation. Confucian values still suffuse Chinese culture, but they are much weaker and now pose little threat to Chinese scientific endeavors. Western culture was once very anti-progressive also.

	24-12-2003 04:22									#200
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Lord Merciless: Yes, the whole world is westernizing now. Modernizing. Same thing, to a considerable extent. That's because the Western world is successful, so the world is changing to reflect it. That doesn't mean that the Western world's success stems from superiority. Our ability to exploit the New World is enough to explain our success all by itself.

For that matter, Western civilization itself isn't what it used to be. The modern Western world will soon be a whole new modern Western world, different from the one we have now. Wouldn't you agree that modern Western government forms, moral codes, education, dress, religion, societal structure, family structure, and art are pretty different from the Greek and Roman antecedents that gave birth to Western civilization? And from the medieval societies from which Western civilization more directly descended? And from the colonial American society? When a new Westernized China arises, it won't be very "Western," it will simply have accommodated and absorbed some modern Western characteristics. Just as all societies through time have done, including modern Western civilization.

The accomplishments of modern times are "greater" than earlier accomplishments because they come after earlier accomplishments. Knowledge increases asymptotically, and thus in any given period of time it's easier to advance farther than in any prior time. How would you rank fire, the wheel, cooking, tool use, irrigation, metal-working, pottery, writing, the alphabet, mathematics, astronomy, navigation, animal domestication, clothing, and religion among the important discoveries? How could we have discovered germ theory, genetic engineering, and space flight without discovering the others first? How could ancient civilizations have made our host of modern discoveries when no one had already laid the groundwork? Someone not from Western civilization, most likely. Do you really feel that Western civilization is entitled to the bulk of the credit?

There's no self-loathing or self-deprecation in acknowledging that your own self or your own family or your own nation or your own religion or your own race or your own culture is just one among many. Common sense would lead you to question whether you just happen to belong to the one special uber-civilization better than all the others.

	24-12-2003 04:39									#201
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quote: Yes if you define hellenic culture by the application of democracy. greeks didnt even have a national identity untill the persian wars and even after only a very shaky. kind of like your "Western civ" huh? only that besides a common enemy greeks spoke the same language and considered everyone else as a barbarian. thats about it.

First, you contradicted yourself within that paragraph. I would say considering "everyone else" barbarians shows a pretty distinct "national identity". Otherwise, how would they tell if someone fell under "everyone else". Second, those aspects you said Greeks shared seem like a pretty good definition of civilization to me.

(btw, I noticed that some people in this thread mentioned that Alexander the Great spread "Hellenic" civilization. Wasn't the conquest of Greece by Macedonia considered the start of "Hellenistic" civilization?)

EDIT: oh, and this thread is one of the most amusing in a long time. Paiktis and Kidicious butting heads is absolutely delicious.

	24-12-2003 04:48									#202
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Paiktis, there was a very limited period in the 19th century (between 1830 and 1865) where the occidental nations shared a truly unique feature : they were becoming industrialized when none of the other nations has still done so. Then the Japan made the Meiji revolution consisting of industrializing too, which was done at a fast pace as demonstrated by the defeat of the Russian fleet by the Rising Sun fleet in 1905.
The industrial power was the most spectacular aspect of the occidental civilization, and it is quite possible that it has summarized in the eyes of many its unity.
But after 1865 there was an asian country in the game, and it was no longer possible to define the occidental civilization as including industrialization as a unique feature shared between occidental nations alone.
I am under the impression that Huntington was influenced by the considerable developpement of the technology, and by its domination by the occidental nations, and gave to it the main role in what he calls a civilization. This is not correct for comparing civilizations if this comparison aims to characterize a civilization by its unique features.
But I think that a complete description of a civilization could include features shared with others, if only for possible evolutions (Japan).

	24-12-2003 04:53									#203
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Western dominance is due to it technological leadership. Technical progress is related to 1) education and 2) competition. Technologic progress is enhanced by laws that promotes fairness, including intellectual property laws.

A primary source of new technology for last 700 years or so is a permanent arms race in the West.

Competition, patents, the rule of law and an arms race.

These are things that brought the West dominance.

	24-12-2003 05:03									#204
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The Greeks did not have a national identity, but a cultural identity. They referred to themselves as the "Hellenes" and the rest of us as "Barbaroi". The Hellenes were all those who were allowed to compete at the Olympic Games.

Yes, Alexander inaugurated the "Hellenistic" Age. He wasn't a Greek anyway.

	24-12-2003 05:04									#205
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What the hell is paiky's problem? I think he just must be pissed that the Former Ottoman Province of Greece isn't considered a part of Western Civilization. We stole all their good ideas and perfected them while they were relegated to the ash-heap of history...

	24-12-2003 05:07									#206
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Western dominance is due to it technological leadership. Technical progress is related to 1) education and 2) competition. Technologic progress is enhanced by laws that promotes fairness, including intellectual property laws.

That's BS. Intellectual property is a recent development. And it doesn't follow anyway, most of the world's greatest music was composed when there either wasn't IP or enforcement was lax.

And "Western Civilization" is a silly idea. The east and west weren't that different 500 years ago - so the Classical inheritance thing is a bit silly. The real explanation is probably quite mundane.

	24-12-2003 05:10									#207
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you have said nothing which proves the existance of a "Western civ"

	24-12-2003 05:10									#208
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten What the hell is paiky's problem? I think he just must be pissed that the Former Ottoman Province of Greece isn't considered a part of Western Civilization. We stole all their good ideas and perfected them while they were relegated to the ash-heap of history...

Since you have used at least two Greek words in that statement, I think you're being a bit mean.

Who are "we"? I mean at various times since the end of the Classical Age various regions have been more or less backward. It's not a simple linear explanation.

I mean who would have thought that a bunch of illiterate farmers who did a bit of boating now and then would end up dominating the globe for 100 years?

Now they're sliding back into obscurity.

	24-12-2003 05:13									#209
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quote: a bunch of illiterate farmers who did a bit of boating now and then

That's the best description of the Greeks that I have ever heard.

	24-12-2003 05:15									#210
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aw little drake, you're so amusing