24-12-2003 00:24									#151
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there is no "west"

there are or have been alliances etc but historically speaking and up to the present there was no nor is there a "west" and certaintly not one "west".

	24-12-2003 00:30									#152
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and it doesnt need "replacing" with anything else as well.


currently and for some decades there has been a push to replace it with "Europe" but this is also made up.

a one "european civ" can only be sustained by only 3 paramteres used as differantiating definittions but only after WW2 and it too has "holes" as it is again politically motivated

	24-12-2003 00:31									#153
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namely large social state, representative democracy and the existance of "paneuropean" social democracy as a differantiating political entity.

	24-12-2003 00:39									#154
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and of course the one compact (unified) "european civ" can't be sustained historically, never mind what the new european constitution writes. as said, history and political aims or socionational mythomotors (or even more appropriately supranational mythomotors in this case) are two different things.

Last edited by Bereta_Eder on 24-12-2003 at 00:47

	24-12-2003 00:55									#155
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What is it that makes Spain more similar to Sweden than either of them is to China?

	24-12-2003 01:00									#156
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Looks like we found Paiktis' Big button.

We can start all declarative sentences with "In the history of Western Civilization..." ala

"In the history of Western Civilization there has never been a more craptacular piece of software than X"

"Your arguments are possibly the most ad hoministic (is that a word) in the history of Western Civilization."

"Nobody, but NOBODY cooks a meaner steak in Western Civilization than my father."

	24-12-2003 01:03									#157
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certaintly not one unique and differentially defined "european civ"

	24-12-2003 01:05									#158
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No JohnT, I just dont have anything better to do than relate what's evidently obvious, there is no such thing as a "western civ" or a one unique unified "european civ". But I'm not going to get upset if you keep talking about it or about santa all the time either

I just laugh a little bit thinking how important it seems to be to americans like you that there is

	24-12-2003 01:06									#159
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In case you haven't noticed, it is only obvious to you.

	24-12-2003 01:07									#160
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you'd wish

	24-12-2003 01:07									#161
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Hey, JohnT, what do you think was the greatest development in Western civilization?

	24-12-2003 01:08									#162
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in other words no arguments.

typical "US culture"

	24-12-2003 01:08									#163
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Well, Americans (and other people) can't stand being told that the sky is not blue when, in fact, it is blue.

	24-12-2003 01:09									#164
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but it's not the sky we're talking about

	24-12-2003 01:10									#165
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Hey, JohnT, what do you think was the greatest development in Western civilization?

Scientific method. Industrial revolution. Nation-state and the various forms of ideologies... God, Imran, there's so many to list!

	24-12-2003 01:10									#166
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 you'd wish

And your support is where?

*JohnT looks around, sees none though a small post might have slipped in here somewhere*

	24-12-2003 01:11									#167
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Scientific method.

A result of a corelation that spans continents


Industrial revolution.

One nationsentity' explosive achievement of said correlation


God, Imran, there's so many to list!

Indeed and non of them "western"

	24-12-2003 01:12									#168
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT And your support is where? *JohnT looks around, sees none though a small post might have slipped in here somewhere*

in all good libraries

(there is a world outside 'poly - not only libraries too)

	24-12-2003 01:12									#169
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Getting off the subject, why is this such a hang-up for you?

	24-12-2003 01:14									#170
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It isnt. I dont have anything better to do at least this is the one remotely interesting subject now in poly for me

	24-12-2003 01:18									#171
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quote: Scientific method. Industrial revolution. Nation-state and the various forms of ideologies... God, Imran, there's so many to list!

Yeah, but one of them . I'd actually say the Combustion Engine may be it for me. Western Democracy is also up there.

	24-12-2003 01:21									#172
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no such thing as "Western democracy"


huge differences between states in nationstate functioning and ethics within the "west" and also amazing similarities with operational sctructural entities outside it.

	24-12-2003 01:25									#173
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Of course there is. Just 'cause your blind to it doesn't mean that Liberal Democracy isn't a creation of Western civilization.

	24-12-2003 01:26									#174
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also its development can't be sustained an an uninterrupted exclusive "Western" historical evoluition and also as said can'tbe seen as "one and the same" either.

	24-12-2003 01:27									#175
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Of course there is. Just 'cause your blind to it doesn't mean that Liberal Democracy isn't a creation of Western civilization.

there is no such thing as liberal democracy being born out of the body of a unified single "western civ". also libneral democracy isnt encompassing or transcending all of "Western civ" as defined either which is i believe also a criterion for proving its (never neverland) existance

	24-12-2003 01:29									#176
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quote: there is no such thing as liberal democracy being born out of the body of a unified single "western civ".

Yes there is. After the US developed it from ideas from French and English philosophers, it spread to the continent.

quote: also libneral democracy isnt encompassing all of "Western civ" as defined

US has one, Canada has one, France has one, Spain has one, Britain has one, Germany has one... etc.

Can you tell me a Western civilization country without a liberal democracy?

	24-12-2003 01:32									#177
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Yes there is. After the US developed it from ideas from French and English philosophers, it spread to the continent.

It wasnt developed in the US. It hasnt spead to the continent. you have one kind of state functioning which you accomodated to your preconditions.

quote: US has one, Canada has one, France has one, Spain has one, Britain has one, Germany has one... etc.

vastly different concepts and different application also

quote: Can you tell me a Western civilization country without a liberal democracy?

yes but before

can you tell me a non "western civ" country which has it as political current?

	24-12-2003 01:34									#178
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quote: It wasnt developed in the US. It hasnt spead to the continent.

Of course it did and of course it did.

quote: vastly different concepts and different application also

Still have the basic tenants of liberal democracy.

quote: can you tell me a non "western civ" country which has it as political current?

Yes, Japan. Western Civilization is obviously spreading so more and more countries are embracing more liberal democratic reforms.

	24-12-2003 01:34									#179
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT "Nobody, but NOBODY cooks a meaner steak in Western Civilization than my father."

Might as well be true. But my mother makes best baclava (sp?) in the Western Civilization.

These simple facts just show how grande and all-encompassing yet basic to all of us and present in our everyday lives Western Civilization is

	24-12-2003 01:35									#180
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and there wasnt a corelation of english and french philosophers which gave it birth.

the histortical journeys and political innovations and state applications of these two entities not only contardict eachother but also find having themselves more similarities with other entities outisde "Western civ" than with themselves.