24-12-2003 09:32									#151
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: So, because the outcome was favorable/desirable in your opinion, the methods used to accomplish that outcome doesn't matter?

AND brilliant. Without him, the war may have gone much, much different. Remember, his taking of Atlanta was Lincoln's Christmas Gift, which sent his numbers skyrocketing when people thought McClellan may have won in 1864.

quote: So, because the outcome was favorable/desirable in your opinion, the methods used to accomplish that outcome doesn't matter?

Well not doesn't matter, but is definetly overshadowed by the favorable outcome.

	24-12-2003 09:35									#152
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Our strategy with the Native Americans was successful and now we have space for suburbia - does the end justify the mean?

i dont get it... usually when someone asks if the ends justified the means, the ends is a positive thing. i'm lost...

	24-12-2003 09:36									#153
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: the ends is a positive thing.

Yeah, suburbia. Better than that hole in the ****ing ground that we out to bulldoze over and build a parking lot, Philadelphia that you live in.

	24-12-2003 09:39									#154
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

wait, imran... you mean you weren't the one with the baby girl? huh?

and albert, that's not why i said the burning of atlanta was bad. i said it was bad because atlanta didn't build properly like chicago did, and because they missed brett rhutler and scarlet o'hara.

	24-12-2003 09:41									#155
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

What did Sherman do that was so bad. from what ive read, the worst thing he did, from a war crimes standpoint, was send captured confederates out to clear a minefield (by basically walking across it and digging occasionally) but none of them died so it came to nothing. so what else was so bad? Comandeering private property without giving proper receipts? burning down some factories and plantations?

	24-12-2003 09:44									#156
	Inflate your Upload Space

albert, i'm not saying the burning was bad. i'm saying that what happened afterwards, which sherman didn't really have much part of, was bad. his burning of atlanta led to:

1. rebuilding it--but with no strong leadership, it became a smear across north georgia.
2. that damned gone with the wind story, which is so much crap.

	24-12-2003 09:56									#157
	Got spare money?

Oh wow, Sherman burned down a city! What a monster!

Wat, the people were not still in it? He didn't loot and piullage for days killing everyone until the river ran red with blood and people could walk ankle deep in it? He didn;t go in, behead all the men, make piles of their heads, and draggged the women and children into slavery? He didn;t salt the fields around the city? nor burn the crops and crop stores?

Then honestly, what Sherman did ranks WAY, WAY, WAY down in the scale of real wartime terror- the only difference is that Sherman was the only one to ever do it to a bunch of Americans on American soil- as far as for Civil war terror, what went in in Missiouri and Kansas during the war is way worse.

And all these acts are rather generic compared to the history of war before or after.

	24-12-2003 09:58									#158
	Got spare money?

GePap - read Q's post.

	24-12-2003 09:59									#159
	Inflate your Upload Space

ok, see, you guys here don't seem to realize that in the list i've made of the worst atrocities of all time, let's see what they were:

1. braves not winning the world series in '91.
2. braves sucking in the postseason.
3. occupation of korea.
4. sherman burning atlanta.
5. gone with the wind.

only #3 is a real complaint. jeebus, if you guys can't seem to take a joke.

	24-12-2003 10:00									#160
	Increase Your PM Length

Phoneix is a far worse example of endless spreading cancers-that and LA, and no one burned those down early.

beside, the Atanta legacy could be solved with a simple thermonuclear device.

	24-12-2003 10:02									#161
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed only #3 is a real complaint. jeebus, if you guys can't seem to take a joke.

HELLO!

"Your so vain, you think this song is all about you, your so vain, your so vain, you think this song is all about you, don't you, don;t you?"

Notice how Verto made some serious comments about Sherman-thus making serious comments A-OK.

	24-12-2003 10:04									#162
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Why are some posters mentioning the genocide of N American Indians and ignoring the rest of the hemisphere? Hell, the Spanish were butchering Indians twice as long if not longer...

	24-12-2003 10:04									#163
	Increase Your PM Length

so i see. he missed the point, too. especially since when i brought it up it was followed by that entire rhett butler thing.

	24-12-2003 10:10									#164
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by Berzerker Why are some posters mentioning the genocide of N American Indians and ignoring the rest of the hemisphere? Hell, the Spanish were butchering Indians twice as long if not longer...

Plenty of people have mentioned the rest of the Americas-in fact, my number 1 was the annahilation of the NA, which means all native Americans (unless that means only N American natives-but then that is your issue, not mine ).

Q- making a joke about something does not all of a sudden make all serious discussion on a topic moot! Besides, you know there are crazy southerners for whom that is not a joke addition.

	24-12-2003 10:11									#165
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

look. ranking "the worst outrages of the past millenium" is an exercise in masturbation without the satisfying conclusion. why?

what's the most tragic outrage to you might be a small scale thing compared to what someone else considers. say your mother is killed right before your eyes by a drunk driver running her over. the drunk driver gets to go free, because he convinces the jury that it was some diabetic ****. is that not a great outrage? now say that none of your relatives had any part in the holocaust--they weren't in the ovens, in the camps, or pushing people in. to them, sure, it's a tragic history. but it's all it is. it's text and photographs, intangible. the blood that splattered into their face from their squished mother? that's tangible.

life sucks. so does the world. ranking the hell that the world puts people through in scale of what's worse than something else...

it's like tasting sixty different kinds of foul diarrhea and then ranking them in vileness.

	24-12-2003 10:15									#166
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

We are talking history, not tragedy. BIG difference.

Remeber that one death's a tragedy, a million a statistic-well, we are here arguing the numbers, with some valued added personal opinions, but what the hey.

Oh- Half millennium- if you make it back to 1003 then the list changes.

	24-12-2003 10:18									#167
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

1. French Revolution

All others pale in comparison.

	24-12-2003 10:18									#168
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Plenty of people have mentioned the rest of the Americas-in fact, my number 1 was the annahilation of the NA, which means all native Americans (unless that means only N American natives-but then that is your issue, not mine ).

Geez, take an anti-paranoia pill or put down the bong. My question was obviously for those people who mentioned
N(orth) American Indians and ignored the rest of the hemisphere.

	24-12-2003 10:57									#169
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

french revolution...well they killed quite a few people...

	24-12-2003 11:00									#170
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: french revolution...well they killed quite a few people...

The posionous ideologies that grew out of the French Revolution were the bigger problem. Nationalism, communism, facism, etc...

	24-12-2003 11:01									#171
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

perhaps we should make a top ten outrages ever thread

	24-12-2003 11:03									#172
	Increase the size of your Attachments

opinions opinions

	24-12-2003 11:05									#173
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Whoha moo3 civ3 duke nukem forever not being released ever tribes 2 with the speed capped stuff in base

MoO3 I'll give you, but Civ3 is great now with the latest xpack.

Tribes2 base still rocks! You can KEEP Classuck!!

	24-12-2003 11:07									#174
	Got spare money?

Lol if this thread doesnt evolve into a flame war by the time i finish working i will start one over master of orion 3 (loved it)

	24-12-2003 11:10									#175
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Here's my list:

1. The raping and pillaging of our planet, which is the current biggest threat to our survival.
2. The Holocaust
3. Slavery
4. Racism and genocide, especially against blacks, native americans, and jews.
5. Stalinist Socialism
6. Western Imperialism
7. Pillaging of the 3rd world
8. Corporatism
9. Hyper-consumerism and materialism
10. Social Darwinism

	24-12-2003 11:25									#176
	Re: Top Ten Outrages of the Past Half Millenium Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove What do you think are the top ten outrages/ depravities/ atrocities of the past 500 years? My list would be: Holocaust Stalin's Reign of Terror Mao's "Cultural Revolution" American Slavery (if you include the entire issue of slavery in the entire western hemisphere yopu could move this up to #2) Japan's Imperial Expansion Spanish Imperial Expansion British Imperial Expansion American War's against the Native Americans French Imperial Expansion Russian Imperial Expansion

Nothing can be compared to the brutality and atrocities of IJA/IJN.

	24-12-2003 11:32									#177
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Nothing can be compared to the brutality and atrocities of IJA/IJN.

	24-12-2003 12:46									#179
	Increase Your PM Length

If we're talking specifics of British imperialism, than the Sepoy and Boer Wars would be pretty high up.

I'm suprised that Imram, et al. hasn't mentioned the partitioning of India and Pakistan as one of the great outrages of at least the past century.

And to throw some fuel on the Allende/Chile debate, people harp on the fact that Allende was elected, which was true, but they forget that he was elected with by a plurality of about ~35% and 35,000 votes, give or take. Not that was any excuse for what happened, by it needs to be put in perspective. I do see a lot of people trying to paint Allende as having been elected with a groundswell of popular support...

	24-12-2003 13:12									#180
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy Think Whaleboy. Think lots of paper. Think Haifa.