30-12-2003 22:51									#31
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Sounds good to me. I am not so sure I would try to put in a lot clauses here. Lets be sure to get the deal done. GoW not giving them to ND seems a bit pushy and for nothing really. I say that because if we don't trade them, we lose them to ND anyway. The trade is the best shot to have them not fall into ND's hands.

	30-12-2003 23:18									#32
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I set up the test in hotseat and it worked as described above.

All we need is agreement on the format from GoW and we're off

	31-12-2003 01:05									#33
	Remove this text

Damn!

Just got this from MZ :

quote: I think there was a slight misunderstanding, we were referring to a free lux by GS in exchange for the tech. If you guys want a further tech deal (straight up 1 for 1) we can also negotiate that separately.

So I misunderstood and we don't have a deal - and there's no time to discuss or haggle so I guess it's slash and burn and that's that.

	31-12-2003 01:27									#34
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

The cities deal may be off, but we can still hold and negotiate, while doing a lux deal anyway.

I sent this to Aggie (MZ's mailbox was full) :

quote: Hi Aggie, MZ's mailbox is full - so I'm sending you this : I apologise for the misunderstanding. If you needed an extra lux too, I don't think we can meet that as part of the city deal. How about a straight lux-for-lux deal this turn though? - we can leave the cities open (literally!) for negotiation if you can assure us that ND can't reach then on their turn, and if you think there is a deal that can be reached. If so, please make us a counter-offer. I can send furs unnaccepted this turn - if GoW wish to trade lux just return wines accepted. Regards, CH

	31-12-2003 02:32									#35
	Builds Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

time to play the turn ...


NM & Barc complete workers

Typhoon completes cat, starts cat

Arashi completes temple, starts Knight

WW completes galley, starts harbour

	31-12-2003 02:36									#36
	Tired of ads?

Heh, I thought it sounded too good to be true.

****.

Wanna come up with a counteroffer? Like the cities + some gold for the tech? How much would it cost us to research that tech? Maybe take that number, cut it in half (or more) and offer it with the cities in exchange for the tech.

-Arrian

	31-12-2003 02:43									#37
	Tired of ads?

How about we offer peace to ND? They shouldn't accept while we still have cities, but we could try it anyway - although if we are sure that their WW will hit first we can wait.

	31-12-2003 02:59									#38
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I don't know how long it is before they get chemistry, but we can do it at seven turns @ current pace (50%, 219 sci-per-turn, +20gpt) or six turns at 60%, 253 Sci p/t -12gpt. By then we'd have another 30 Sci/p/t from uni's and libs. 295 Sci/p/t is enough to do it in five turns - and all this is before the price goes down once they've researched it.

At current price Chemistry costs about 1500 science. If Lego and ND have it too, how much would that come down by if GoW complete it?

If we took a third of that ~ 500g - that would equal 2 turns of maximum gold to raise - perhaps once we've got astro.

I think that price plus cities is a bit high, as was their request of city plus luxury. Barcelona is valuable for GoW - Silks inside and Saltpeter nearby.

	31-12-2003 03:12									#39
	The North Increase Your PM Length

RP have renamed the cities. The new names are definitely an improvement

Beta is now San Diego
Miller Town is now Monterrey
Wittllich is now Santa Barbara
Harry's Hideout is now San Antonio
{the other one} is now El Paso

pulled back line of galleys by Sacremento into sea to force boats onto coast, and shuffled cats towards lining this coastal area with them
now have four picket galleys around Estonia.

we also have 2 picket galleys off the east coast of Bob - any suggestions for these, or are they OK as they are?

	31-12-2003 03:58									#40
	The South Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Units shuffled round to nearly complete sea-wall. Once it's done next turn we can relax and optimise.

	31-12-2003 04:01									#41
	Bob Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

The last units are on the galleys.

Cities are naked but we still have the silk, and maybe we can get a city deal for next turn.

	31-12-2003 04:17									#42
	Put an end to popups!

Turn sent.

	31-12-2003 06:26									#49
	Inflate your Upload Space

Good job, CH.

Time for a chat with GoW, methinks, not only to deal with the current trade but to follow up on the mysterious communication of last week.

Hmm... MZ, Aggie, UnO... anyone else we should invite? And any preferences on who PMs to whom?

	31-12-2003 19:55									#50
	Increase Your PM Length

So what did we do with the cities? Did we raze them? If not, and they are undefended as shown in the shots, why would GoW not simply walk in and take them?

Sorry, I'm a little confused.

Things look good at home. Wow, our lands are well-developed.

Once Sufa completes its aqueduct, several of those southern workers can be added to boost its pop. Growth is good.

To the extent that we're still trying to do a chemistry deal for the cities (assuming GoW doesn't just grab them), how does 100 gold + the cities sound as a counteroffer, with the upper limit being 200 gold?

-Arrian

	31-12-2003 20:06									#51
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

If GoW take the empty cities they've broken the cease fire, the peace, their honour and credibility and they'll get a bite of WW which they'll have to negotiate their way out of.

Yeah - 100-200 gold plus the cities would be worth a go. In fact, with RP researching Banking (20 turns) and Vox doing PP for us, there'll only be Navigation or Chemistry to pick in 3 turns time.

	31-12-2003 20:10									#52
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Arrian Once Sufa completes its aqueduct, several of those southern workers can be added to boost its pop. Growth is good. -Arrian

Likewise with Monsoon. We'll soon have eight cities size 10-12.

	31-12-2003 21:23									#53
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

I bet they just take the cities. I'd be rather surprised if they don't.

What do we want to do with our navy?

I see 3 options:

1) keep it as is (size, composition), set up lookout ships.
2) keep it the same size, but upgrade the galleys to caravels, set up lookouts.
3) determine the exact number of lookouts we need, and keep that many galleys, disbanding those we do not actually need (regulars first). Maybe upgrade those we keep.

I think the key questions to answer first are: how many galleys do we currently have, and how many do we need to keep an effective watch for incoming invasion?

-Arrian

	31-12-2003 21:38									#54
	Got spare money?

we've approx two dozen galleys - a dozen in the north and a dozen in the south. Each fleet, upgraded to caravels would allow 3 dozen units to be offloaded.

While we have the large fleet, we have a mobile threat -and with Navigation we could turn up almost anywhere in the world unnanounced. Disbanding the surplus navy would rule out that option.

	01-01-2004 00:29									#55
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

note from Aggie here

	01-01-2004 12:28									#56
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

What is to be gain by spending lots of cash to upgrade? The capacity is not needed for some time and we can upgrade later if needed. Caravels don't seem to do any better in fights.

The other aspect is the maint will be very expensive if it used for the next 100 turns. That money could speed research or support structures. A real evaluation of the strategy and use of them should be considered. Do we see a war soon or not. Do we see an invasion soon or not?

	02-01-2004 16:53									#57
	Got spare money?

True, investing in upgrades would not be worth it if the fleet is not to be used. However, if GoW turn round to us in 5 turns time and offer us a chunk of Bob in return for a war against ND - or if a joint ND/GoW/GS assault on Lego were on the cards - we wouldn't want to have burned our bridges.

So while we don't want to hold 25 ships for a hundred turns unused, we might need to keep our options open for a little longer while things shake out following our departure.

	02-01-2004 17:03									#58
	Suffering from ads?

I just posted a quick link to Aggie's message the other day - here's the relevant stuff.

quote: I'll discuss the tech deals and lux deal to see what everyone wants(there is quite a bit of opposition to giving chem at all, astonomy also is possible but since that leads to navigation). But certainly a lux deal is ok I'm sure. In the end it might be that the 2 cities might be abandoned. In that case that area will probably be settled by ND. There is very much arguement about whether 2 distant cities where corruption is absolute, are worth a tech like chem that leads to Military Tradition.

A few things here - first, they clearly don't have a leader for an FP. Second, they're apparantly not fussed about missing out on independent silk and nearby access to SP.

	02-01-2004 17:23									#59
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Reminded Aggie in a PM that Barc has Silks, and suggested we could top up the deal with gold.

	02-01-2004 18:41									#60
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by Cort Haus So while we don't want to hold 25 ships for a hundred turns unused, we might need to keep our options open for a little longer while things shake out following our departure.

They are not unused if they are on the lookout... we can't cover all of our coast with units, we can however put some galleys out to spot incoming invasions and make a mobile defense wall. Please do not disband any galleys, it looked to me we might even use a couple more!

But, I agree, no need to upgrade them to caravels yet

As to the GoW deal: maybe a chat would be better... their argument of not giving any tech towards navigation or cavs is a silly one, we will get to those techs fastly ourselves, also without their hope (besides, is anyone serious about getting to cavs? it's an optional tech, I'd rather shoot for riflemen instead (or let RP do it).) If they do not trade with us, they will only make it more likely we will turn on them in the (far) future, instead of joining in a partnership.

DeepO