29-12-2003 17:07									#1
	Turn 158 - 430AD Remove this text

With a bit of chaining the last remaining units can be withdrawn this turn.

Still no news from GoW - I suppose if they don't get back to us for this turn then we could just disband the two cities. On the other hand, we can do without losing the Silk, so hanging on has its appeal.

	29-12-2003 17:20									#2
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Maybe better to contact them first, these are holiday periods after all

DeepO

	29-12-2003 17:54									#3
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OK, I just PM'd MZ and Aggie.

	29-12-2003 23:17									#4
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Reply from Aggie and my ackn here .

They're discussing it, and they also want RP to make peace with them. Fair enough, I think the feeling here is that continued war for ww is not a good idea.

I also suggested a lux trade - are there any objections to that? I say yes, we need it for WLTK on size 6 cities, and also for the size 12's.

	30-12-2003 00:16									#5
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GoW are interested in a lux deal .

	30-12-2003 02:05									#6
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Why is perpetual war for ww an exploit?

	30-12-2003 03:03									#7
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Exploit might be a too big a term, but seeing as we saved RP from any invasion for the next 100 turns at least (that is if we keep the sea wall in one piece), them staying at war just to annoy GoW doesn't seem fair. There is no way for GoW to end the war, or to get a diminishment of WW on their own... if it would ever get that far, I would vote to urge RP to make peace with GoW, yes. And with ND as well, if they ever want to talk. RP (and we) lost the war, no need to make asses of ourselves.

DeepO

	30-12-2003 03:13									#8
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Next question: Why would we be fair to GoW?

	30-12-2003 04:04									#9
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It's not so much about being fair to GoW, as much as the general principle of using WW as a kind of blackmail or punishment tool, and setting a precedent for such.

Until recently I had been open to using this device, but have been swayed by the arguments of team-mates here who felt it could set an unhealthy example.

	30-12-2003 05:18									#10
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On top of that, we might need GoW later on as friends...

But yes, I agree with CH, I don't like the blackmail principle. It's one of those things that only annoys people, and doesn't really help the ones doing it. I've been annoyed enough in this game, especially in the public forum, I don't want to start annoying others in-game. (other then taking their land, razing their cities, and raping their army widows, of course)

DeepO

	30-12-2003 06:25									#11
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quote: We have been discussing the situation with the two cities Barcelona and New Madrid and we are willing to offer GS a free lux deal for them or perhaps a favorable (to GS) tech trade. Tell me what you guys think.

	30-12-2003 07:27									#12
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what does favorable mean?

If its chemistry for the two cities, then ok, if not, or some weird tech deal that might never come to fruition, then....

	30-12-2003 13:36									#13
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I sort of lean to Sir Ralphs point. If you go to war with someone and can not eliminate them you may have to face the prospect of endless war and the WW that comes with it.

I don't view it as a blackmail as we are not the instigators. We already agree to peace did we not? I think is honorable to suggest peace to RP, but we don't have to demand it or lean on them.

Of course if I had been in on all the whole game, I would probably be way to mad to be considerate and only care about getting my pound of flesh.

It is true we may need GoW, but if we do they will need us as well and either way it is not clear that they would recipricate in any event.

My limited expose to ND would suggest they do not have any breaks coming.

	30-12-2003 13:38									#14
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Oh BTW CH my hats off to you for a yeoman job of caring out the game and the diplomacy. It looks like a fair amount of work.

	30-12-2003 14:46									#15
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Cheers, vmxa1

So, gentlemen. GoW have agreed to trade us Chemistry for New Madrid and Barcelona, with a wines-for-furs deal as part of the package. This is excellent news. We didn't think we'd get a tech and we have.

	30-12-2003 15:06									#16
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CH, Chemistry is super, but please make sure we can trade it to RP (no need to mention in explicitly, just look out for clauses that prevent that) in due time.

As to leaning on RP: we can't demand that RP makes peace, that's not what I wanted to imply. And GoW should know that, RP are not our vasal who do everything we say they have to do. But, we can ask RP to make peace, and I think we should do that...

DeepO

	30-12-2003 15:06									#17
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So, on the mechanics - it would be good to get the lux deal done so that we have wine flowing through our civ on the next turn to replace the spices.

So we (1) send them Barc and NM accepted, and in a seperate deal this turn we (2) send them furs unnaccepted, to which they respond with furs=wines accepted.

This should ensure the seamless 4 luxuries that we need to maintain happines without using the slider, or entertainers in several large cities.

	30-12-2003 15:09									#18
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CH, are you sure on this? I remember something in the beginning of this game were a similar deal went wrong, as they only received one proposal instead of two. I can't remember the specifics, and it can be changed with recent patches, but there was something fishy going on.

DeepO

	30-12-2003 15:11									#19
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Oh, and in the final treaty, I still would like to have a clause preventing them from trading the cities to anyone else (especially ND) for at least 20 turns. If GoW gets these cities, it can only rise tensions between them and ND. if they go to ND, they only become stronger...

DeepO

	30-12-2003 15:12									#20
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There's a twenty-turn no-trade-on clause to the Chemistry - which is fine - we can trade it on to RP later (when they have Banking - which is in about 20 turns) . Sorry, in my excitememt I didn't post this from MZ:

quote: We have discussed this among our team and have agreed to trade you guys Chemistry once it is researched in exchange for those two cities as well as a lux deal from GS. Also there would be a 20-turn no-trade clause attached to Chemistry

	30-12-2003 15:18									#21
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quote: Originally posted by DeepO Oh, and in the final treaty, I still would like to have a clause preventing them from trading the cities to anyone else (especially ND) for at least 20 turns. If GoW gets these cities, it can only rise tensions between them and ND. if they go to ND, they only become stronger... DeepO

There's no way I see GoW trading them to ND. If ND were to have them, they could just stroll over and take them, as they are still at war with us - no point in paying a tech.

	30-12-2003 15:21									#22
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quote: Originally posted by DeepO CH, are you sure on this? I remember something in the beginning of this game were a similar deal went wrong, as they only received one proposal instead of two. I can't remember the specifics, and it can be changed with recent patches, but there was something fishy going on. DeepO

OK, we have to be cautious here, so I'll post a message on the gen forum delaying our turn till this evening GMT to allow time for consideration of this. Perhaps we should set the lux slider anyway and sacrifice a turn of research.

	30-12-2003 15:24									#23
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I might set up a hot seat game tonight to experiment with multiple deals like this if we don't get a definitive word on it today. Hopefully someone can clarify.

	30-12-2003 15:25									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Cort Haus There's no way I see GoW trading them to ND. If ND were to have them, they could just stroll over and take them, as they are still at war with us - no point in paying a tech.

Well, I agree, but please let's be sure about this and include some clause in the treaty. GoW are sneaky bastards, you never know what they're up to.

DeepO

	30-12-2003 15:28									#25
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Do we lose a turn of research, or just a bit of cash in the process? a turn is important, a bit of cash not so...

but testing is always better if no-one knows the definitive answer...

Oh, and a 20-turn NDA is perfect... I'm sure RP will like it too (after all, we're selling their cities here, we better explain it to them in detail why we do it. And part of the reason is increased tension on Bob)

DeepO

	30-12-2003 18:55									#26
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I PM'd MZ about the mechanics . They play a lot of PBEM.

I also mentioned not trading the cities on to ND.

	30-12-2003 18:57									#27
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quote: Originally posted by DeepO Do we lose a turn of research, or just a bit of cash in the process? a turn is important, a bit of cash not so... DeepO

I'll check later. Entertainers - even starvation would be better than losing a research turn.

	30-12-2003 22:14									#28
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Kick ass. I didn't think we'd get tech, so it's a good deal from my standpoint.

HOWEVER, I'm still a little concerned about New Madrid... isn't that city screwed up?

-Arrian

	30-12-2003 22:35									#29
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They know about New Madrid - I explained here .

If needs be we could even send a settler and rebuild to compensate.

I'm experimenting with hotseat atm to check the trade mechanics for multiple deals in a turn. I've two civs roading to each other to check the lux trades, but experiments so far with money suggest that deals get combined in the diplo screen of the recieving party at the start of their turn.

So, if we send NM, Barc, Furs unnacepted, and they reply with wines accepted, then we accept on the start of our turn we should have the lux at the start of our turn for the happiness calcs.

Does that sound right?

	30-12-2003 22:40									#30
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We could also suggest to GoW that they offer RP peace with gunpowder - as a gesture. We can and will give gunpowder to RP ourselves, but perhaps it could soothe things if it came from GoW. We will have to present the deal over the cities as a fait accompli to RP - we can't have them disapproving and stopping a good deal. They'll get the chemsitry themselves eventually