31-12-2003 21:15									#1
	PROJECT: AI Coding group Full PM-box? Change here!

The AI is a significantly complex and sizable part of the CtP2 code.

Evaluation, debugging, improvement and modification of it, is a significant task... and more suited to teamwork, because of the scale, rather than individual effort...

I was just looking for the interest of forming a loose team to deal with this... with a bit more structure than we have at the moment.

Maybe an irc chat even? (although its understandable that we all might be busy for a while what with the holidays)

	01-01-2004 21:53									#2
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Count me in. At the rate I'm making progress on this it will take forever.

	07-01-2004 21:57									#3
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That's a good but between the lines already suggested idea, along with other major parts like multiplayer, SLIC engine/Editor, Linux port and others. That was part of the idea between the "Interest Area" section of the sign up thread as well.

I am not sure it's the right time yet but it wouldn't heart either if we would form a team for it. Do you feel you have the means to lead this team MrBaggins?

	07-01-2004 22:22									#4
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Well... I don't know we need a team definitively yet, either. I know we will eventually, and I know that if we don't form some form of cooperative informational process then a number of us will be duplicating work trying to figure things out/fix things... and thats the one thing we don't want to do.

I'm not sure I want to be team leader, I've learnt its best not to volunteer for these kind of things, but I do have time right now...

I'll organize an AI chat... and those interested can discuss their findings and proposals, and develop some kind of plan for how we want to approach things.

How does that sound?

	07-01-2004 22:51									#5
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I concur on the part of duplicating work but people that are already involved in altering the code know what each one is doing and for most people any alteration is done in a quite slow rate anyway. If more people get involved for real - not just say they're interested - then we definitely will need to get well organized. I agree we sort these things from now, and from time to time that is what I am doing in this forum so go ahead with the AI chat, it's a good idea. Only let people know about it a few days before. Personaly I would be interested to join the chat but due to workload it would be quite possible to forget about it so I would appreciate it if someone would send me a message in ICQ

	07-01-2004 23:50									#6
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Ok... How about an AI Chat on Sunday? 4 O'Clock Eastern, maybe... so 9pm UK... 10 Germany?

How does that sound?

Or would people prefer it earlier?

	08-01-2004 18:06									#7
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The date and time is fine with me.

	09-01-2004 14:12									#8
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The AI is the one area that needs a big improvement in CTP2. CTP2 in my opinion is far superior than CIv3 (especially for scenario building) but the civ3 AI is very good. In ctp2 get a few stacks and its goodbye AI

Limiting stack sizes to say a max of X would be one of the first things that potentially could improve the AI. Might this be one to discuss?

	09-01-2004 16:02									#9
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I'll be there. And, yes, we should think of what we want to discuss.

	09-01-2004 18:29									#10
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Looks like I'll be out of here (well... not able to devote time to coding... can't say I'll be totally absent) for a while... a week or two probably, dealing with a significant project.

I'll do my best to make the AI chat.

	10-01-2004 20:17									#11
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I'll try to come along too. I have a few ideas for the AI... Where would the chat be?

Last edited by J Bytheway on 21-08-2004 at 19:38

	14-08-2004 01:15									#12
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Bump
for calvitix

	11-11-2004 03:58									#13
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calvitix says he busy doing stuff is there anyone else out there looking to help with AI? should we put out a news item plea?

	10-12-2004 00:42									#14
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The AI project still going??

I'd like to join up if you guys are still looking for bodies.

	10-12-2004 00:52									#15
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YEAH IT IS! The AI coders have gotten busy resently, but if you can help out in that area GO FOR IT!

	10-12-2004 01:30									#16
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Yeah, absolutely go for it. This entire project is a continuous one, and while it might go faster or slower at some times because of the schedules of people involved, the more people we can get working on it, the better the game will become.

So, if you can contribute something to coding/changing the AI, it will be VERY appreciated.

	10-12-2004 19:31									#17
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Sounds good.

Thanks for the link E. I'll start digesting and see where I can help.

	10-02-2005 20:43									#18
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bump for sekel, and you may want to contact some guys too...

Protra3211
UGHQ_Tempus
etc

	10-02-2005 22:04									#19
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I´ll add them to my messenger and restart my ICQ, for many people don´t use messenger.

thanks for the tip

	27-02-2005 19:35									#20
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A problem I noticed is that the AI city placement is too bad. They leave huge areas unpopulated and aren´t agressive enought in putting cities near the human player. I´d like to see something like Civ3, where the AI will agressively populate every space near your borders that you don´t colonize.

I´m not sure yet witch files I should be looking at, but I´ll seek for them.

	27-02-2005 20:25									#21
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quote: Originally posted by sekel A problem I noticed is that the AI city placement is too bad. They leave huge areas unpopulated and aren´t agressive enought in putting cities near the human player. I´d like to see something like Civ3, where the AI will agressively populate every space near your borders that you don´t colonize.

In which version of the game did you observe this? I fixed this problem in GoodMod for instance, and it should now be fixed in the source code edition as well.

The other question is whether the locations chosen for cities are the best locations in comparision to other locations. Maybe there are some factors missing, but if it is just filling the available space then strategies.txt and terrain.txt are enough.

-Martin

	27-02-2005 22:24									#22
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Martin, is it possible to tell the AI to respect a certain radius around each city depending on map size?

Example for gigantic maps, tell it to respect that each city gets 2 rings around each city before it starts overlapping? Or if its a small map tell it only 1 ring?

Of course there should be exceptions too if its stuck on a small island on any size map to tell it to settle for only 1 ring.

	27-02-2005 22:40									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Maquiladora Martin, is it possible to tell the AI to respect a certain radius around each city depending on map size? Example for gigantic maps, tell it to respect that each city gets 2 rings around each city before it starts overlapping? Or if its a small map tell it only 1 ring? Of course there should be exceptions too if its stuck on a small island on any size map to tell it to settle for only 1 ring.

The current system is like this in startegies.txt we have a flag called MinSettleDistance, according to the discription, it determines how many squares a city must be away from another city. If you use a value of 4 that means that the new city must be founded at least 4 tiles away from the nearest city influence border. If all your cities are small then the spacing is tighter than it would be if your cities are big. This means in the early game this number should be bigger then in the late game. Unfortunatly this holds only for land cities.

Obviously we have to consider this influence thing a little bit. Maybe another value that is the minimum distance between two cities. And then these two values are compared and then one of them is taken.

-Martin

	28-02-2005 08:04									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Martin Gühmann In which version of the game did you observe this? I fixed this problem in GoodMod for instance, and it should now be fixed in the source code edition as well. The other question is whether the locations chosen for cities are the best locations in comparision to other locations. Maybe there are some factors missing, but if it is just filling the available space then strategies.txt and terrain.txt are enough. -Martin

I´m more interested in filling the spaces first now .... then I´ll think about best locations.

I noticed this problem in a game started in an unmooded Playtest from september, but now I can compile the game, so I will start new games in the new version and see if I have the same impression.

	28-02-2005 10:35									#25
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nice sekel. glad you are showing an interest in this.

	28-02-2005 13:23									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Martin Gühmann The current system is like this in startegies.txt we have a flag called MinSettleDistance, according to the discription, it determines how many squares a city must be away from another city. If you use a value of 4 that means that the new city must be founded at least 4 tiles away from the nearest city influence border. If all your cities are small then the spacing is tighter than it would be if your cities are big. This means in the early game this number should be bigger then in the late game. Unfortunatly this holds only for land cities. Obviously we have to consider this influence thing a little bit. Maybe another value that is the minimum distance between two cities. And then these two values are compared and then one of them is taken. -Martin

Im well aware of the current system Martin

And I agree, as we chatted very briefly about before in a PM, there definitely needs to be more or at least another factor for placement taking into account the radius of a city.

Im thinking it might take a long time for the AI to consider the radius of a future city though?

	28-02-2005 22:47									#27
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quote: Originally posted by sekel I´m more interested in filling the spaces first now .... then I´ll think about best locations.

That is one and the same problem. Of course a good locations is one that connects your empire and not one that leaves gap of one tile even it isn't necessary.

quote: Originally posted by Maquiladora Im well aware of the current system Martin

I know, but you aren't the only addressor of the reply.

quote: Originally posted by Maquiladora Im thinking it might take a long time for the AI to consider the radius of a future city though?

I don't think so. The spacing is one thing. And the other thing is that the location's value is already precomputed. There is something like a settle map in the game. So all it would need would be a better computation method and more factors.

-Martin

	01-03-2005 04:27									#28
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The first playtest that came out I found that the AI did a better job of settleing than the 1.11 version. Seems that the AI builds more cities on hightest level - expands so fast that if you are too slow the AI hems you in till your unable to find land to build new cities.

	01-03-2005 04:41									#29
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Just one more point. The first playtest used the same numbers for settlenig in Strategies text file as in the 1.11 patched version. But seems to settle more.Must be change in code. I feel that if the AI settles cites to close together this will allow more room for the human player to expand his empire . Best plan for AI is to take as much ground as it can.

	01-03-2005 05:52									#30
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But not so much that it settles too far apart, then it becomes harder for the AI to form stacks quickly for defence.

As i said before i think map size and starting island/continent size is important for choosing what minimum radius to allow. Of course the AI cant know this until it explores its coast, so thats important to do as soon as possible, but thats important anyway for its own immediate security.

quote: I don't think so. The spacing is one thing. And the other thing is that the location's value is already precomputed. There is something like a settle map in the game. So all it would need would be a better computation method and more factors.

Will the terrain score really ever be good enough though? I dont think so, but unfortunately it means more work to make a new system, is that what you mean by more factors? Or adding to the terrain scores idea? For example counting the total of each 3 resources on immediate ring, food, production and commerce and have a minimum score total for each resource for settling a new city in certain game situations.