06-01-2004 04:57									#91
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quote: Selection committee is a bad, bad, bad idea. I thought the whole point of the BCS was to acknowledge the fact that human polls are sometimes wrong.

Agreed. USC was only first in the polls because they lost the earliest. I thought we had decided that judging teams on that basis was silly, so why go running back to the human polls? The computers judge without a bias towards teams who lost early, which is a good thing in my book.

	06-01-2004 05:00									#92
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quote: They are going to have the same problem every time there are more than 2 teams with the same record. You could concievably have 3 unbeatens. Or 5 teams with a single loss. It is going to be a problem any time that happens (if you want a clear victor, you need a playoff structure.) But if you are going to stay with the bowls...and you are going to have the BCS attempting to get champions, then the current system makes sense. It makes sure that bowls don't have teams locked up so they can't compete. And it gets the two teams with best schedule (and same record) to the table. All that crap about losing early or late or who you lost to or if it was in a conf championship is silly in my book. Strenght of schedule is a HUGE factor. But net, net...I would be just as happy not to have a playoff and not to have BCS. Just go back to the old days of bowl games. That is what the PAC10 wants.

Good post.

	06-01-2004 06:36									#93
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I agree. Surprised even myself. thought I was only a troll now.

	06-01-2004 08:08									#94
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quote: Originally posted by MRT144 just add one more game after all the bowl games...

Actually will be discussed.

Not a bad solution eithier. Let the BCS get rid of the computers, add more relevance to strength of schedule, and weight late losses heavier than early losses (Teams do get better and the champion should be a peaking team). You should be able to get the best 4 teams to two of the BCS bowls. 1 vs 4 and 2 vs. 3. Then a College Superbowl to decide the trophy. This system should eliminate the split championship. It would be very unusual to imagine BCS # 5 as the AP champ.

	06-01-2004 08:32									#95
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you are totally jixing it. it will happen now.

	06-01-2004 08:44									#96
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quote: Originally posted by TCO you are totally jixing it. it will happen now.

probably!

	06-01-2004 08:52									#97
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fool. Should know better than to mess with the gods. I can see you setting up the last BCS system...

	06-01-2004 10:46									#98
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quote: USC was only first in the polls because they lost the earliest. I thought we had decided that judging teams on that basis was silly

Why? As stated by many people, teams should get better as the season goes on. Therefore a team that lost early and improved as the season continued should be ranked higher than a team that lost late when they were at their peak.

	06-01-2004 12:46									#99
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quote: Therefore a team that lost early and improved as the season continued should be ranked higher than a team that lost late when they were at their peak.

Why? College football rewards excellence over the course of the entire season, not getting hot at the end. This isn't the NFL, as I've tried to explain to you many times.

	06-01-2004 17:42									#100
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten Why? College football rewards excellence over the course of the entire season, not getting hot at the end. This isn't the NFL, as I've tried to explain to you many times.

Rewarding excellence???? then why did they let a team that finished second in their conference go to a national championship game.

	06-01-2004 17:43									#101
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten quote: Therefore a team that lost early and improved as the season continued should be ranked higher than a team that lost late when they were at their peak. Why? College football rewards excellence over the course of the entire season, not getting hot at the end. This isn't the NFL, as I've tried to explain to you many times.

True, but when all other things are equal the early loss should count for ;ess than the late loss. It only makes sense that a team that is 1 loss and dominating the stretch run would be a better choice than a 1 loss that just crashed in its last game.

	06-01-2004 18:18									#102
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Yeah... the most important game of the season for them, and they rolled over and played dead.... that's real excellence for you... In the Midwest, we call that a major league choke

	06-01-2004 19:09									#103
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quote: Rewarding excellence???? then why did they let a team that finished second in their conference go to a national championship game.

Oklahoma only finished second in the Big 12 because of the championship game, a playoff. That playoff made Oklahoma's great regular season irrelevant and allowed a team that simply got hot at the end of the season to win a title they didn't deserve based on their regular season performance. Just a small taste of what a playoff system would do to college football as a whole...

	06-01-2004 19:14									#104
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quote: True, but when all other things are equal the early loss should count for ;ess than the late loss. It only makes sense that a team that is 1 loss and dominating the stretch run would be a better choice than a 1 loss that just crashed in its last game.

Not necessarily. This year, that might make sense, but what about other years? What if a team loses a star player to injury towards the end of the season, drops a game, but get the player back in time for the bowls? Do you really think that they are less deserving than the other team, just because they lost later?

	06-01-2004 19:25									#105
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten Oklahoma only finished second in the Big 12 because of the championship game, a playoff. That playoff made Oklahoma's great regular season irrelevant and allowed a team that simply got hot at the end of the season to win a title they didn't deserve based on their regular season performance.

Yeah... they finished second because they lost their most important game of the season to date. And then you say the winner didn't deserve to win a title, yet they did what they had to do... which was to win the game on the field.

If conferences are going to have these tournaments, the games do count. You just can't wish they didn't happen, or ignore the results. The facts are simple... Oklahoma choked and finished SECOND in their own conference. They weren't even champions of their own conference... you want to reward this kind of "excellence".... HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHA

Frankly, I would rather reward teams that can at least win their own conference... I don't think that's asking too much of a "National Champion"

	06-01-2004 19:28									#106
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quote: Yeah... they finished second because they lost their most important game of the season to date.

It wasn't the most important game of the season. They knew going into it that they didn't even have to win to go to the national championship game. It was irrelevant, except for bragging rights, which probably explains the lack of focus they showed.

quote: Frankly, I would rather reward teams that can at least win their own conference... I don't think that's asking too much of a "National Champion"

So would I. As you should remember, I don't think any team that fails to go undefeated is truly worthy of being National Champion.

	06-01-2004 19:29									#107
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This is called the HAHAHAHAHAHA method of argument.

	06-01-2004 19:39									#108
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten It wasn't the most important game of the season. They knew going into it that they didn't even have to win to go to the national championship game. It was irrelevant, except for bragging rights, which probably explains the lack of focus they showed.

Please tell all the Oklahoma fans how the Big 12 Championship is irrelevant. I don't think rewarding a team that you seem to think GAVE UP in a game a chance at a national championship.

quote: So would I.

HUH.... you are claiming that a team that finishes second in their own conference should be given a chance for a national championshop.... so no, you aren't agreeing... you are saying that second best is good enough for a shot at the gold.

	06-01-2004 19:44									#109
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quote: HUH.... you are claiming that a team that finishes second in their own conference should be given a chance for a national championshop....

No, what I'm saying is that, if you insist on having a system where two teams must meet for the national title even if there are no unbeateans, then you need an objective way to choose whichof the once-beatens get to play. Simply picking the teams that lost first is not objective in the least and I'm glad the BCS has attempted to get away from such a simplistic and unfair process.

It's also unfair to punish teams that play in conference championship games, which you seem to be all to happy to do. Until all conferences play title games, a loss in one shouldn't automatically disqualify you from a shot at the title.

If I had my choice, however, they wouldn't award a national title to an team with a loss. I know that's never going to happen, however, so I do try to argue within the bounds of reality.

	06-01-2004 19:46									#110
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quote: Originally posted by TCO actually teams in college have way more control of strength of schedule than teams in the pros. In any case, regardless of their control, their is more accomplishment in defeating a tougher slate.

A huge crock. Schedules are fixed for conferences leaving few elective out of conference games.

As for the Pro arguement, thats why they have a playoff to seriously test the mettle of those teams that did well by having a weak schedule.

Interesting how on the field results are thought to be less importatant than some BS strength of schedule arguement.

GP you can do better than that lame a$$ troll.

	06-01-2004 19:49									#111
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten No, what I'm saying is that, if you insist on having a system where two teams must meet for that national title even if there are no unbeateans, then you need an objective way to choose whichof the once-beatens get to play.

How about a simple rule that you can't finish second in your own conference. How about only letting REAL champions into the big dance. Sounds pretty objective to me... win your conference or stay home.

Again.. you are claiming that a second place team deserved a shot at it. And this from a person who can't even stand wild card teams in other sports play offs

	06-01-2004 19:51									#112
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This thread is deja vu.

	06-01-2004 19:58									#113
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quote: Sounds pretty objective to me... win your conference or stay home.

It's not fair at all when different conferences have different requirements to be conference champs. Oklahoma went undefeated in the regular season, but had to risk the conference championship in a winner-take-all playoff game. USC, OTOH, didn't go undefeated in the regular season, but didn't have to face a similar postseason game for the Pac 10 title. How exactly is it objective to make a blanket rule like "you must win your conference championship" when the rules for obtaining a conference championship aren't the same?

Come on, you're smarter than this, Ming...

quote: Again.. you are claiming that a second place team deserved a shot at it.

No, I'm claiming that a 12-1 team has just as much of a case as an 11-1 team. I don't really give a damn when they lost, which is how it should be...

	06-01-2004 20:04									#114
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten How exactly is it objective to make a blanket rule like "you must win your conference championship" when the rules for obtaining a conference championship aren't the same? Come on, you're smarter than this, Ming...

Sounds objective to me. Win your conference or stay home.
Sure, each conference does it differently... so what.
You play in your conference to win the championship... And Oklahoma couldn't do it. Season over.

Again... you are advocating that second place teams deserve a shot.... come on, you're smarter than that

	06-01-2004 20:06									#115
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Well, this is going nowhere, so it's off to bed for me. No sense in staying up late to rehash the same old argument.

	06-01-2004 20:08									#116
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As long as you continue to advocate that second place teams deserve a shot at the national championship... you are right... this won't go anywhere... Sleep well

	06-01-2004 20:11									#117
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten It's not fair at all when different conferences have different requirements to be conference champs. Oklahoma went undefeated in the regular season, but had to risk the conference championship in a winner-take-all playoff game. USC, OTOH, didn't go undefeated in the regular season, but didn't have to face a similar postseason game for the Pac 10 title. How exactly is it objective to make a blanket rule like "you must win your conference championship" when the rules for obtaining a conference championship aren't the same?

Boohoo poor Oklahoma. Has to face the risk. Sounds more like excuse making than anything else. If they were championship caliber they'ld be asking for the chance to play rather than wilting in the face of "gulp" a possible loss.

Bunch a posers never should a been there in the first place. Woulda been knocked out in the first round if there was playoff. ('cept if they went up against Nebraska )

	06-01-2004 20:15									#118
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How complex do the BCS rules need to be before people come to the inevitable conclusion that it is completely flawed?

Ohh will just add this little thing this year and this little thing next year etc. etc.

If the goal is to have true champion the message is the same as last year (and the same as next year and the year after that).

Playoff.

	07-01-2004 01:59									#119
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quote: Why? College football rewards excellence over the course of the entire season, not getting hot at the end. This isn't the NFL, as I've tried to explain to you many times.

As stated by Plato, you don't get it. A team that loses early has probably improved throughout the season, while a team losing late, all other things equal, is playing at that improved state. So we ARE rewarding excellence over the season. The team that lost early played better over the course of the season than the team that lost late.

quote: What if a team loses a star player to injury towards the end of the season, drops a game, but get the player back in time for the bowls? Do you really think that they are less deserving than the other team

Well you sure as **** seem to think so. If there are three teams that are 10-0, and one team loses its star player to injury and loses its last game, you'd say tough luck.

quote: How exactly is it objective to make a blanket rule like "you must win your conference championship" when the rules for obtaining a conference championship aren't the same?

Like Ming said, it doesn't matter that there are seperate rules for winning a conference. Those conferences VOTED for a championship game and ADDED teams to get it! They did it for the money, so they shouldn't whine when it works out against them. The Pac-10 and Big 10 (11) could add more teams, but would rather forgo the money and have the team with the best record be the conference championship. That's their choice to do so.

Win your championship and then go on. Simple.

quote: If the goal is to have true champion the message is the same as last year (and the same as next year and the year after that). Playoff.

	07-01-2004 02:02									#120
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All I came here to say is that what I really learned from all the bowl action is that the Big 12 was highly overrated this year. 2-6 in bowl games including 0-3 from Jan. 1 and on.

The computer polls average had a better idea where the conference belonged than did the humans this year, with the exception of Oklahoma.