05-01-2004 03:46									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker Sava - Well, since both were/are "corporatist states" obviously bent on "economic slavery", you must believe mass murder is an insignificant detail.

It is. It was only achieved because of historical conjoncture. On this, read Arno Mayer's book (who is Jewish himself). One could think the exact same thing would happen if the US met those historical conditions.

quote: We're largely ignorant because (shock) our leaders don't want us to know what they've been doing in our name, but how is that any different than other countries? On the other hand, can you name one country with the comparative power held by the US that has shown such restraint wrt foreign policy? Hell, the US has liberated dozens of countries in the last 60 years... Do you want to blame the corporations for that too?

Dozens? Hmmmm... I'd say at best half that number, and even then consider that most liberations were half hearted. And probably twice were actually enslaved. If we compare the post-Stalin Soviet Union with the US, I think the USSR showed more restraint and commited less crimes.

	05-01-2004 03:46									#32
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I didn't read the article. Does this only concern US citizens, or ALL travellers?

	05-01-2004 03:48									#33
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse You're a dork. They aren't doing anything more than the Amis are doing to them (making travellers get fingerprinted and ID'd)

Thanks. I also love you

What I mean is that they are doing this kind of registrations so they appear at the news and the world gets aware of it. And once the world asks why they are doing that, the answer is "hey the Americans started before!"

	05-01-2004 03:49									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris It is. It was only achieved because of historical conjoncture. On this, read Arno Mayer's book (who is Jewish himself). One could think the exact same thing would happen if the US met those historical conditions. Dozens? Hmmmm... I'd say at best half that number, and even then consider that most liberations were half hearted. And probably twice were actually enslaved. If we compare the post-Stalin Soviet Union with the US, I think the USSR showed more restraint and commited less crimes.

Oh, Good Lord. The door of the looney bin must be open.

	05-01-2004 03:51									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris If we compare the post-Stalin Soviet Union with the US, I think the USSR showed more restraint and commited less crimes.

I know a couple of Russians who would not agree with you about it. They even say that don't want to put a star in the Christmas tree because that remind them of soviet times. And they also put a lot of effort to remind everyone who wants to hear that fortunately the USSR doesn't exist and that Russia had more than 1000 years of history before 1917.

	05-01-2004 03:54									#36
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Oh, Good Lord. The door of the looney bin must be open.

I'll have to precise my thoughts here. The Holocaust is a huge tragedy, true. But it was started when Germany smelled defeat coming up. Guess what? Hitler first thought of deporting the Jews, either in Madagascar or the Urals- just like the US is doing with the Muslims. Is there a difference? In scale, yes. In the ideology behind it? Not much.

In 50-100 years from now, when China becomes a real threat to US hegemony, America will be on the merge of being a fascist state anyway. And if they start 'losing'... someone's gonna pay. We just don't know who yet.

	05-01-2004 03:56									#37
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quote: Originally posted by OliverFA I know a couple of Russians who would not agree with you about it. They even say that don't want to put a star in the Christmas tree because that remind them of soviet times. And they also put a lot of effort to remind everyone who wants to hear that fortunately the USSR doesn't exist and that Russia had more than 1000 years of history before 1917.

Yes, and in a few years from now they'll be putting a star to remember Putin the Great, the man who brought democracy and justice to Russia.

	05-01-2004 03:57									#38
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*Buzzzt* Wrong.

The death squads were hunting down and killing Jews, and others, long before defeat began to enter the picture.

As for the rest of your cooked up fantasy based on... dubious similarities, well, debating it would be beyond pointless.

	05-01-2004 04:02									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka I didn't read the article. Does this only concern US citizens, or ALL travellers?

bah, who gives a ****... it's brazil... I'm not going there...

	05-01-2004 04:06									#40
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither *Buzzzt* Wrong. The death squads were hunting down and killing Jews, and others, long before defeat began to enter the picture. As for the rest of your cooked up fantasy based on... dubious similarities, well, debating it would be beyond pointless.

False. The massacres before August 1941 were limited in scale. Contrary to popular belief, Germany smelled defeat- albeit in a somewhat unconscious manner-, not in Stalingrad or even in 1942, but when the difficulties around Kiev and in Staraya Russa arose.

About my similarities... of course they are dubious, for now. Fascism is waiting at every corner, that's my point. I think in America it could arise from "passive nihilism" (in a Nietzschean meaning) and the ensuing desire of security that follows. Think of rich quarters enclosed by armed miradors. This is not the point of this thread, true. But I doubt that it's not worth debating. It is a very serious concern. Things like genocides have been known to happen independantly of those who claim that 'such things are over'.

	05-01-2004 04:09									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris In the ideology behind it? Not much.

I'm no fan of the US, and I think the US deportation of Muslims is a terrible happenance that will be one of the worst shames of the American democracy, similar to MacCarthysm.

But this is just ridiculous. There is a huge ideology gap between the suspicion and mistreatment of Muslimd in the US, and the harassment of Jews in nazi Germany. The nazis believed that Jews were a plague of mankind, something they had to get rid of for the own purity of their race. Jews were considered as an inferior vermin because of their very blood, because of their very birth.
In the US, these Muslims are considered dangerous because of paranoia some of them could turn out being enemies of the State. Not because they are considered an inherently inferior vermin plaguing mankind

	05-01-2004 04:11									#42
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Sava, Nah, I'm thinking if this only concerns US citizens, it's clearly a bad move. If it concerns EVERYONE, then it's different. Like, the US checks on travellers, but that's because they need to, and have decided because of security matters. If this is only for US citizens, it's clearly just retaliation.

	05-01-2004 04:15									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris False. The massacres before August 1941 were limited in scale. Contrary to popular belief, Germany smelled defeat- albeit in a somewhat unconscious manner-, not in Stalingrad or even in 1942, but when the difficulties around Kiev and in Staraya Russa arose. About my similarities... of course they are dubious, for now. Fascism is waiting at every corner, that's my point. I think in America it could arise from "passive nihilism" (in a Nietzschean meaning) and the ensuing desire of security that follows. Think of rich quarters enclosed by armed miradors. This is not the point of this thread, true. But I doubt that it's not worth debating. It is a very serious concern. Things like genocides have been known to happen independantly of those who claim that 'such things are over'.

Well, I think your historical interpretations are beyond dubious, but whatever.

I have just one question, do you foresee renewed holocausts in the futures of any other nations, or just the US?

	05-01-2004 04:15									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka If this is only for US citizens, it's clearly just retaliation.

I think it is a good way to really voice opposition to the US measure. My main problem with the US decision is that there is a list of exempted countries. Unless there is a serious security reason to let these countries be (such as local intelligence services deemed adequate), the very existence of this exemption list is an utter shame.

	05-01-2004 04:17									#45
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Some countries on the exemption list are integrating intelligence (and perhaps security) efforts with the US, I would think. That would be the case with Canada.

	05-01-2004 04:25									#46
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Spiffor, yeah, but it's because of security reasons, not because they want to piss off everyone.. You think they benefit from this, other than possible security things? Absolutely not! As things are, this pisses off lots of people travelling to the US, lots and lots of people. And even the ones who don't travel. There is no bonus doing this, only reason is security.

As that, I think the US can decide how they want to go with it. If they say this is the way it goes, then that's the way. Everyone decides for themselves. But they do have valid reasons why this is done. But if Brazil decides to do this just because of retaliation, I wished they have something more legit reason, not countering to the US's own security measures that has to do with how they handle travellers. If it was 'we limit Brazilians' then it would be better to retaliate like this. But this goes for all.

	05-01-2004 04:27									#47
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We are also in the exemption list, and that's cool with me. But I think we are co-operating with the US in some other levels too sharing information, plus we are categorized as 'safe' country, which we are when it comes to terrorism. We likes the US and they like us

	05-01-2004 04:28									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor I'm no fan of the US, and I think the US deportation of Muslims is a terrible happenance that will be one of the worst shames of the American democracy, similar to MacCarthysm. But this is just ridiculous. There is a huge ideology gap between the suspicion and mistreatment of Muslimd in the US, and the harassment of Jews in nazi Germany. The nazis believed that Jews were a plague of mankind, something they had to get rid of for the own purity of their race. Jews were considered as an inferior vermin because of their very blood, because of their very birth. In the US, these Muslims are considered dangerous because of paranoia some of them could turn out being enemies of the State. Not because they are considered an inherently inferior vermin plaguing mankind

I think the ideology is much more similar than you would think. The hatred was not for the Jewish race in the first place, but against Judeo-Bolchevism. In such, the Jews were enemies of the state- in a very counter-revolutionary meaning.
And fundies Muslims are enemies of freedom, democracy, etc... Which are values allegedly defended by the American state. 'Biologic' racism came after the hatred for Judeo-Bolchevism. It was a propaganda tool used to justify it to the masses.

	05-01-2004 04:33									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris 'Biologic' racism came after the hatred for Judeo-Bolchevism. It was a propaganda tool used to justify it to the masses.

From the beginning on, the nazis associated the Jews to all evils that befell Germany, especially the economic crisis and massive unemployment. Mein Kampf already mentioned the Jews were Untermenschen (something no Conservative I know of would dare to say of Muslims today), and Hitler already planned to genocide them.

Biologic racism was existent and fundamental to the nazi ideology all along, and it only happened to coincide with the hatred for communism.

	05-01-2004 04:33									#50
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Well, I think your historical interpretations are beyond dubious, but whatever. I have just one question, do you foresee renewed holocausts in the futures of any other nations, or just the US?

My historical interpretations are based on known facts. The Einsatzgruppen were created by the OKW for the Barbarossa operation. Of course, Jews had been brutalized in Western Europe too, and in Poland- but never in an organized way, but rather as 'personal' decisions made by old-timers SS and Gestapo officials.
The Warsaw ghetto was never a nice place, true. But it was created in [November] 1940, and the real worsening of the situation hapened in the end of 1941.

edit: [November]

	05-01-2004 04:42									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor From the beginning on, the nazis associated the Jews to all evils that befell Germany, especially the economic crisis and massive unemployment. Mein Kampf already mentioned the Jews were Untermenschen (something no Conservative I know of would dare to say of Muslims today), and Hitler already planned to genocide them. Biologic racism was existent and fundamental to the nazi ideology all along, and it only happened to coincide with the hatred for communism.

Yes, but the bad was POLITICAL. Biological racism may have been existent from the beginning... but the conservative elites, whose support Hitler needed, for most didn't give a **** about such lies.

Now, I know that the hatred is not directed against the 'Muslim man'. But Muslims are treated on the assumption that they might be carrying part of the fundamentalist ideology- a huge prejudice in itself, which in a way could be compared to the idea that each Jew was a proponent of 'judeo-bolchevism'. Are there differences between nazism and American conservatism? Yes, of course. I just wanted to point out that you have over-estimated them, as shown from your first post.

Edit: I have not read Mein Kampf and don't know what Hitler exactly said in it. But historical evidence shows that when in power, he pushed for deportation before opting for the genocide route.

	05-01-2004 04:55									#52
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you guys are making a big deal out of nothing

nobody is being humiliated

these checks are a good idea and if you are humiliated then you have all your priorities in all the wrong places

talk about blowing things out of proportion

easy sign things are being out of of proportion --> use of the word Nazi

	05-01-2004 04:56									#53
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ted is right

	05-01-2004 05:14									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker you guys are making a big deal out of nothing nobody is being humiliated these checks are a good idea and if you are humiliated then you have all your priorities in all the wrong places talk about blowing things out of proportion easy sign things are being out of of proportion --> use of the word Nazi

I sincerely believe that taking fingerprints, pictures, iris mappings, etc, of your citizens is absolutely criminal, just like are the cameras in London's streets.

And about the Nazi thing: we were responding to Sava's claims that Muslims have been deported. BTW, the idea that the US is becoming fascist is getting more and more attention- because there could be some truth behind it.

	05-01-2004 05:22									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker nobody is being humiliated these checks are a good idea and if you are humiliated then you have all your priorities in all the wrong places

Sorry, but I value my privacy, and I certainly don't want my fingerprints to be taken by anybody. I'd consider the storing of my fingerprints as a grave humiliation, especially when done by a government I'm hostile to.

	05-01-2004 05:25									#56
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you guys are using public facilities

so you already are giving up your right to privacy

	05-01-2004 05:25									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Sava I specified that is the difference... www.hookedonphonics.com

You said the "very small" difference between Nazi Germany and the USA was that Hitler was a mass murderer. Will hooked on phonics inform me that a "very small difference" is actually a significant difference?

quote: it sounds like he's referring to the overall policy against muslims... over 83,000 deported so far... no criminal charges filed... only 11 POSSIBLE links to terror...

Really? Did you get that sound from hooked on phonics? He was quoted, we can only presume, regarding the US policy of photographing and fingerprinting visitors from certain countries. That is the issue involved here...

quote: hmmm... rounding up people of a certain ethnic/cultural makeup... sounds like what the nazis did. The difference is we deport them... the Nazis killed them.

We aren't rounding up Muslims for deportation, there are several million here.

quote: restraint? tell that bullshit to the Iraqis...

No Sava, I'm talking about all those countries the USA could have invaded over the last 60 years or done what the Soviets did, "liberate" those countries conquered by the Axis only to stay there as an occupying force. But sure, let the Iraqis vote on whether or not they appreciate the US removal of Saddam Hussein. Can we trust their opinions more than yours? Hell, I was not a supporter of Gulf War II and I readily admit the Iraqis are better off without Saddam and his cronies slaughtering people. And let's not forget, Gulf War II was a result of Gulf War I - the US led liberation of yet another country invaded by a thug, a thug finally removed by a second war.

quote: yeah I guess you are right... we're the only nation to ever possess the power to nuke the world... I guess it's commendable the US hasn't nuked the world...

The USSR lacked the power to nuke the world? Yes, Sava, with all that firepower we could go around conquering many nations and if Hitler had that comparative power, that's exactly what he would have done. Look at every civilisation that became a "superpower" in their time and see what they did with that power and tell me the USA ranks with the worst.

	05-01-2004 05:27									#58
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What the hell is this thread still doing open? Godwin has been invoked numerous times already.

	05-01-2004 05:28									#59
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Berz: Gulf War I was about reinstalling the dictators of Kuwait... liberation my ass...

yes, as a world superpower... the US is more destructive than even the Roman Empire was... stop living in denial

	05-01-2004 05:34									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker so you already are giving up your right to privacy

I don't think my image is stored anywhere near my name in places I don't want, such as buses and supermarkets.
Besides, I'm 99% sure nobody stored my fingerpirnts, unless the French police goes against the law and secretly stores them.

If the French are ever to be IDed in such a way in American airports, I'll seriously reconsider any possible trip there. For me, such a breach in privacy is very serious.