05-01-2004 05:40									#61
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i think that's ridiculous

put aside your petty quirks for the sake of the public's safety

first of all it's good prevention. secondly, in case something happens, i'd like them to be able to track down who did instead of trying to figure out where "some guys" are

SECONDLY, some of the flights from Britain that were grounded just this week were because some of the names of the passengers were on a terrorist watch list. that's a perfect example of when having more information helps out

	05-01-2004 05:41									#62
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quote: I sincerely believe that taking fingerprints, pictures, iris mappings, etc, of your citizens is absolutely criminal, just like are the cameras in London's streets.

The US isn't doing this to its own citizens. Rather, it's doing this to foreigners who choose to come here, knowing what information is required for entry.

Brazil can do this to Americans. I have no problem with it. Doesn't matter whether it's just to us, or to a broad swath of the world. Nobody's rights are being violated.

	05-01-2004 05:41									#63
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither I have just one question, do you foresee renewed holocausts in the futures of any other nations, or just the US?

Do you care to answer that, Oncle Boris?

	05-01-2004 05:47									#64
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker first of all it's good prevention. secondly, in case something happens, i'd like them to be able to track down who did instead of trying to figure out where "some guys" are

Then why don't you begin storing stasi-like information on your won citizens?

	05-01-2004 05:51									#65
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Sava -

quote: Berz: Gulf War I was about reinstalling the dictators of Kuwait... liberation my ass... yes, as a world superpower... the US is more destructive than even the Roman Empire was... stop living in denial

And the liberation of France and several European countries re-installed a bunch of socialists, so what? We didn't go into Kuwait to suppress a rebellion by the populace to overthrow their dictators, we liberated Kuwaitis from a brutal dictator who invaded their country. Do you think the Kuwaiti people would have been better off under Saddam? If not, count that as a liberation. If the Kuwaiti dictators were smaller versions of Saddam, I would have had another reason to oppose Gulf War I.

OBoris -

quote: Dozens? Hmmmm... I'd say at best half that number, and even then consider that most liberations were half hearted. And probably twice were actually enslaved. If we compare the post-Stalin Soviet Union with the US, I think the USSR showed more restraint and commited less crimes.

Well, since I didn't say how many dozen, how could you say half of that? Let's see, most of Europe including what the Soviets "liberated" from the Nazis (1 or 2 dozen), another dozen or so in East Asia, and perhaps another dozen in other parts of the world in addition to all those countries the Axis would have conquered before the weight of the world came crashing down on their venture even if the US stayed out of the war. And all Sava can do is complain about the US removal of Saddam? And who did the US enslave? Oh yeah, you equate capitalism with slavery... Of course, we aren't hanging around running elections in these countries so that is inaccurate even if we accept your equation as valid.

	05-01-2004 05:56									#66
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Oh, I forgot this one:

quote: and even then consider that most liberations were half hearted.

And you consider "half-hearted" liberations worse than enthusiastic invasions perpetrated by so many "superpowers" of the past? Yes OB, the US liberated these countries primarily out of self-interest... You know, selfishness... Evil capitalists liberating millions of people out of greed...

	05-01-2004 05:58									#67
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Then why don't you begin storing stasi-like information on your won citizens?

our own citizens didn't intentionally wreck 3 airplanes

and cut out the secret police references it's getting old

	05-01-2004 06:09									#68
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Is Oncle Boris a French version of Ned?

	05-01-2004 06:13									#69
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker our own citizens didn't intentionally wreck 3 airplanes

They did however intentially blow up a public building in Kansas city killing more than a hundred people (all intentionally), and IIUC, your own people did start the anthrax panic.

They have done more harm to your fellows Americans than, say, the Brazilians.

	05-01-2004 06:15									#70
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quote: and IIUC, your own people did start the anthrax panic.

Stop pulling things out of your ass. Fact is, nobody knows who did it.

	05-01-2004 06:18									#71
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quote: Originally posted by Sikander Is Oncle Boris a French version of Ned?

	05-01-2004 06:23									#72
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Do you care to answer that, Oncle Boris?

Well... I don't get your question exactly. Do I foresee any Holocaust? Not in the near future. Even in the US? not likely. Fascism does not = Holocaust, but that does not make it less despicable. And yes, I do see a 'Fascismification' of the US, nurtured by a so-called "security" threat.

	05-01-2004 06:26									#73
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor They did however intentially blow up a public building in Kansas city killing more than a hundred people (all intentionally), and IIUC, your own people did start the anthrax panic. They have done more harm to your fellows Americans than, say, the Brazilians.

The point IS, we can't pick and choose from which country terrorists are going to come from. So we ask everyone to register. if it's our own citizens then the chances of us already having detailed information on them is already very high. but if it's coming from a foreign source then it's alot harder to track down just exactly who these people actually are.

Personally I feel safer when I'm in a place where there is a high amount of security. I appreciate the cameras and the metal detectors, the bomb sniffers.

If that bothers you then either get over it or go somewhere else.

	05-01-2004 06:30									#74
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker The point IS, we can't pick and choose from which country terrorists are going to come from. So we ask everyone to register.

Even yours, so I fail to see why you don't begin with the most readily available chunk of the suspect population

quote: If that bothers you then either get over it or go somewhere else.

Going somewhere else. That's what I'll do (unless France is in the exepted list)

	05-01-2004 06:31									#75
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oh, so many posts... my connection went down for a few hours, so i couldn't post here...

well, the article wrongly says that it was a "law" passed by a Brazilian federal judge. it was actually a ruling, in response to a request made by the Public Ministry (some sort of "General Attorney"). but since Julier Sebastião da Silva is a federal judge, his rulings are applicable to all national territory, that's why Americans were being fingerprinted and photographed in São Paulo and in Rio de Janeiro.

it was obviously a retaliatory measure, and, according to the judge, was something backed up by international law and diplomacy. he said he didn't want to cause any diplomatic incidents, but he is questioning why Brazilians have to be submitted to such security measures in US while other foreigners don't have to.

it may be ruinous to our tourism, yes, but i don't think so. most people don't really care about that, they just want the process to be quicker and less confusing (unfortunately, our Federal Police -- which is in charge of airport security -- doesn't have the numbers to really enforce that ruling).

most of our liberal media is supporting the measure, saying that we cannot be submitted to such humiliation and to be treated like criminals in the US.

but the Federal Government is considering to appeal from that ruling (sorry if these are not the technical terminology in English).

i can tell you something: you won't be able to find terrorists among native Brazilians.

	05-01-2004 06:32									#76
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quote: if it's our own citizens then the chances of us already having detailed information on them is already very high. but if it's coming from a foreign source then it's alot harder to track down just exactly who these people actually are.

	05-01-2004 06:38									#77
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Ted:
Oh, so you already registered your whole population, and took its fingerprints. All right then.

	05-01-2004 06:47									#78
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker OBoris - Well, since I didn't say how many dozen, how could you say half of that? Let's see, most of Europe including what the Soviets "liberated" from the Nazis (1 or 2 dozen), another dozen or so in East Asia, and perhaps another dozen in other parts of the world in addition to all those countries the Axis would have conquered before the weight of the world came crashing down on their venture even if the US stayed out of the war. And all Sava can do is complain about the US removal of Saddam? And who did the US enslave? Oh yeah, you equate capitalism with slavery... Of course, we aren't hanging around running elections in these countries so that is inaccurate even if we accept your equation as valid.

There was no altruism in the Marshall plan. The reconstruction of Europe was part of the Cold War. America needed their former economic partners back on track, that's for sure. And I don't think the US could have imposed their conditions on the French or the British like they can with today's poor countries. Defeating Nazi Germany was sure a nice thing to do. But would the US have done it if it didn't fit their interests? Nope. It took Pearl Harbor and Germany's DOW to finally shake the public opinion. No country has ever been altruistic in its foreign policy, and the US doesn't escape that rule.

And about the 'liberated' countries in East Asia, I wonder what you're talking about. Are you mentioning Kissinger's actions that lead to Pol Pot? Or the Vietnam war, which was not about destroying the country to gain a political edge. Oh! I get it! You're talking about Suharto, the human rights advocate!
Then, we could always say the US saved South America by eradicating the Sandinists or putting Pinochet in power.

True, the Cold War was waged everywhere and it was disgusting, both by what the commies and the US did. Neither was any better and that's my point. (In fact, since the communists were defeated at many places even though they had popular support, I suspect the US has been more efficient in funding the right groups at the right time).

	05-01-2004 06:56									#79
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Ted: Oh, so you already registered your whole population, and took its fingerprints. All right then.

Most of them, yes.

You know, things like drivers licences (which in many states include a thumbprint), birth certificates, etc.

How dare they require me to register for being born though???

	05-01-2004 07:01									#80
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris There was no altruism in the Marshall plan.

Hold it right there.

Regardless of the motives of the reconstruction, the hearts and minds of the Americans on the ground who were the ones to implement the program were almost completely altruistically motivated.

That makes a big difference rathar than some blind program just throwing money around.

	05-01-2004 07:24									#81
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Ted:
You mean, these fingerprints and such have been archived by the police? If yes, well, I'm damn glad of not being an American

	05-01-2004 07:28									#82
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WTF is the breach of privacy in your fingerprint being linked to your name in a data base available to the authorities? Most any government has a lot more than that on each and every citizen.

Do they still require foreigners to leave their passports at the front desk of hotels in France, and people to register with the local constabulary when they move within France? Or were these just myths?

	05-01-2004 07:31									#83
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Fingerprints and Photographs, OH MY!I can't believe some of you are so petty that you'll use something like this to appropriate and belittle the holocaust in string equation.

Oh how horrific! They made me give fingerprints and have a photograph taken upon entrance to the country. I feel so VIOLATED - this isn't what a government should be able to do to a human being while entering their country!

Let those Brazilian or American ****s take my picture later this year. I'm not a terrorist, and therefore have nothing to fear - less a rare and short mix up which SIMPLY HAPPENS upon initiation of a new system. Glady we have whining hacks to blow such up to a "human rights abuse" echoing the magnitude of Nazi Germany.

How talented. Honestly

	05-01-2004 07:36									#84
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quote: And the liberation of France and several European countries re-installed a bunch of socialists

social DEMOCRACIES... man your uninformed ramblings are getting tiresome

I suppose the defense of Britain helped keep a Stalinist regime in power, right?

	05-01-2004 07:37									#85
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker Hold it right there. Regardless of the motives of the reconstruction, the hearts and minds of the Americans on the ground who were the ones to implement the program were almost completely altruistically motivated. That makes a big difference rathar than some blind program just throwing money around.

If America didn't think the Marshall plan was in their interest, they wouldn't have done it. Say, for example, that communist resisters are so strong in France that they take power after the war with popular support. Is there a Marshall plan in France? (Not considering the ties the new France would have with USSR).

	05-01-2004 07:51									#86
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quote: Originally posted by Zylka Fingerprints and Photographs, OH MY!I can't believe some of you are so petty that you'll use something like this to appropriate and belittle the holocaust in string equation. Oh how horrific! They made me give fingerprints and have a photograph taken upon entrance to the country. I feel so VIOLATED - this isn't what a government should be able to do to a human being while entering their country! Let those Brazilian or American ****s take my picture later this year. I'm not a terrorist, and therefore have nothing to fear - less a rare and short mix up which SIMPLY HAPPENS upon initiation of a new system. Glady we have whining hacks to blow such up to a "human rights abuse" echoing the magnitude of Nazi Germany. How talented. Honestly

That is the sillies argument one could ever have. "I'm not a criminal, therefore I can tolerate any law enforcement program". The true problem, here, is that they'll NEVER stop, and we can never know in what hands this power may eventually fall. I bet you a thousand bucks that whithin a century or two, every newborn will have a microscopic chipset imbedded in them to know where they are.

Just look at this:
http://www.againsttcpa.com/what-is-tcpa.html

and then compare with: http://www.trustedcomputing.org/home

	05-01-2004 08:03									#87
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Is it equally sillies to say that we're talking about FINGERPRINTS AND A PHOTOGRAPH? "But where will they stop?!" is a little bit an unimiginative panic, regarding discussion on the present.

You're talking about microchips in babies. I mean wow.. just absolutely WOW. Argue the present issues, and the present means. When they start proposing to graft people with barcodes and magnetic collars, then you can argue about the barcodes and magnetic collars.

Otherwise, go back to your 43rd viewing of the Matrix and/or post-apocolyptic cyber dice games. People shouldn't be here to talk several centuries ahead in fear of every minute change on the verge, it's the changes themselves and the now that matters.

	05-01-2004 08:11									#88
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My fingerprints is something I want to keep to myself, thank you very much.

	05-01-2004 08:14									#89
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You don't touch many things, do you?

	05-01-2004 08:14									#90
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris And about the 'liberated' countries in East Asia, I wonder what you're talking about. Are you mentioning Kissinger's actions that lead to Pol Pot? Or the Vietnam war, which was not about destroying the country to gain a political edge. Oh! I get it! You're talking about Suharto, the human rights advocate! Then, we could always say the US saved South America by eradicating the Sandinists or putting Pinochet in power. True, the Cold War was waged everywhere and it was disgusting, both by what the commies and the US did. Neither was any better and that's my point. (In fact, since the communists were defeated at many places even though they had popular support, I suspect the US has been more efficient in funding the right groups at the right time).

Wow, that's very generous of you to equate the crimes of communism with those of the US during the Cold War. Especially since as you say communism was more popular but nonetheless failed. I wasn't fooled by those thousands of people cheering the destruction of the Berlin wall, or the hundreds of thousands of refugees who risked their lives to cross that wall, or make their way to Hong Kong etc. It was only due to the limitless resources of the USA that propoganda on that scale can occur. Ditto the numerous people I've known personally in the West who managed to escape Hungary, Poland, Soviet Union, East Germany, China, Vietnam, Cambodia, Cuba, Nicaragua etc. Each one with a convincing "back story" which they managed to stick to in some cases for decades. Imagine how much such a large group of frankly excellent deep cover agents must have cost the U.S. It makes the Marshall Plan look like lunch money in comparison.