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Oncle Boris
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Once in a brown moon
Aug 2001
time: 00:33
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Berzerker, honestly, if you are going to argue about the fact that any social-democrat/socialist state is necessarily criminal, then we're wasting our time. The topic may be interesting on a philosophical standpoint, but we'll assume, when talking politics, that democratically elected governments who created welfare states are just fine- as long as the process was democratic. You've already found your truth in Nozick/Bastiat/Rand and that's fine with me, but don't push me around saying that murdering social-democrats is about saving the world from the dangers of wealth redistribution, and that the US was altruistic in doing that.
Now, I'm sure you probably know that the Corporations have been using brute force to prevent laws for better working conditions, or even to prevent worker unions. If you really think that strikers are only killed when they attack scabs or when they are on the company's property, then you are a one-of-a-kind ignorant dumbass. Most countries in South America, Africa and some parts of Asia offer their police to the Western corporations to massacre workers. In some cases, the repression is only 'legal'. Think of China, who has forced some 'unions' to elect the CEO for president! Now, I see you coming: "China is SOCIALIST you moron!. Know that things are this way in so-called capitalist countries (which are in fact corporocracies), and that drilling and mining companies have been known to 'use' the despots they keep in power to secure their situation.
These crimes do count in America's curriculum. And as for the presidents... problem with them, is that they stay in place only for a few years, which makes it hard for them to reach the hot spots in the century's worst criminals. At least, be proud in knowing that Kissinger made it.
Spiffor:
Stupid yourself. I pinpointed that the similarities between Nazis and America are intriguing at best, but there are some. Do you really think those voting for Le Pen 'love' the Muslim men? There are many such *******s in retarded America. There are plenty of good arguments showing that America is tending towards despotism too. I know it's hard for Europeans to compare someone with Nazi Germany, because they oftentimes feel like they were Satan himself. But they were not any worse than many throughout history. Alexander the Great brutally enslaved and massacred populations, so did the Mongols, so did the Crusaders, so did the communists. This historical trend has not disappeared in the 20th century and it could well show up someday in America's not-so-bright path.
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Berzerker
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topeka, kansas,USA
May 1999
time: 23:33
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Spiffor - quote:
You thought it was difficult for me to admit Kuwait hadn't genocided? |
Yes, because my question exposes the flaw with your insult and I'm quite used to Sava and OBoris avoiding questions that poke holes in their arguments. If it's so obvious, why do you insist on arguing that Kuwait is to France as Nazi Germany is to the USA? You said it was stupid to argue there is a "very small difference" between the USA and Nazi Germany (Sava's claim) but added it was "as stupid" for me to argue that there is a very small difference between Kuwait and France. That means you must think Kuwait has committed horrendous crimes, even crimes comparable to the Nazis... But you don't believe that, therefore your insult lacks substance which is probably why all you can do is keep repeating it without offering proof.
quote:
If you want to go further, I can even tell you that postwar France has commited infinitely more crimes than Kuwait in its whole history, because France was and remains an evil manipulative plundering postcolonist in Africa. |
I can accept that, so why did you argue Kuwait was worse than France - so much worse as to make any comparison "as stupid" as comparing Nazi Germany with the USA?
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That doesn't make your comparison between Kuwait and social-democratic countries any less stupid. |
You mean a social-democratic country that has committed more evil than Kuwait is still better than Kuwait? I wasn't comparing "social-democratic" systems with monarchies, I was comparing Kuwait to France wrt what each country has done to people - the same criterion Sava and I were using for our USA-Nazi Germany discussion.
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But your premise that democratic institutions mean nothing to you just makes it impossible for you to open your eyes. |
That's correct, I'm no fan of monarchies or (socialist)democracies. Both have dictators, they only differ in the number of people trying to play king for a day. But my view of these ideologies is irrelevant to the comparison I was making...
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Berzerker
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topeka, kansas,USA
May 1999
time: 23:33
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O Boris - quote:
Berzerker, honestly, if you are going to argue about the fact that any social-democrat/socialist state is necessarily criminal, then we're wasting our time. |
You're a socialist (oh, "democratic socialist"?), so why on Earth would you think socialism is criminal? Tell me, O Boris, if government did not exist, could you go around plundering people's money to pay for your welfare without committing a crime? If it's a crime to steal from others, it's still a crime even if you make the theft "legal". Yes, socialism (democratic or not) is criminal by it's very nature...
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The topic may be interesting on a philosophical standpoint, but we'll assume, when talking politics, that democratically elected governments who created welfare states are just fine- as long as the process was democratic. |
Might (majority) makes right?
quote:
You've already found your truth in Nozick/Bastiat/Rand and that's fine with me, but don't push me around saying that murdering social-democrats is about saving the world from the dangers of wealth redistribution, and that the US was altruistic in doing that. |
Where did I advocate murdering social-democrats? And where did I say the US was altruistic in doing that? I want to see actual quotes and not another rambling post full of strawmen.
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Now, I'm sure you probably know that the Corporations have been using brute force to prevent laws for better working conditions, or even to prevent worker unions. |
The absence of a law is not brute force, the existence of a law is brute force. It would be nice if you social democrats understood that every time you lament "there ought to be a law against that".
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If you really think that strikers are only killed when they attack scabs or when they are on the company's property, then you are a one-of-a-kind ignorant dumbass. |
Prove me wrong, you haven't yet.
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Most countries in South America, Africa and some parts of Asia offer their police to the Western corporations to massacre workers. |
Don't change the subject, we were talking about the "robber barons" of the USA, not 3rd world dictatorships. Sheesh Boris, wasn't that debate in another thread.
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In some cases, the repression is only 'legal'. |
Well now, you think plunder is just fine when it's "legal" in a social democracy.
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Think of China, who has forced some 'unions' to elect the CEO for president! Now, I see you coming: "China is SOCIALIST you moron!. |
You said it, not me. I don't resort to calling people idiots or "dumbasses" (unless they start insulting me).
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Know that things are this way in so-called capitalist countries (which are in fact corporocracies), and that drilling and mining companies have been known to 'use' the despots they keep in power to secure their situation. |
If a despot is in power and being bribed to do the bidding of a corporation, then it isn't a capitalist system. Capitalism requires
a free (or relatively free) market and that includes the freedom of association which is obviously violated by such practices. And a free market also requires the absence of political favoritism...Once politicians start picking winners and losers (via bribes, legislation or whatever) it's no longer a free market...
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These crimes do count in America's curriculum. And as for the presidents... problem with them, is that they stay in place only for a few years, which makes it hard for them to reach the hot spots in the century's worst criminals. At least, be proud in knowing that Kissinger made it. |
When were strikers murdered for refusing to work in America? No Boris, strikers were attacked by the police after the strikers attacked "scabs" or tried to shut down the business they were trying to coerce into making a new contract. Business owners didn't run around killing people who refused to work for them...
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Spiffor:
Stupid yourself. |
I don't think Spiffor called you stupid, he said comments made by me and Sava were stupid. Maybe you should quote him too...
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Spiffor
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CPA - Evil Clone brigade
Nov 2001
time: 06:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Oncle Boris
Spiffor:
Stupid yourself. I pinpointed that the similarities between Nazis and America are intriguing at best, but there are some. Do you really think those voting for Le Pen 'love' the Muslim men? There are many such *******s in retarded America. There are plenty of good arguments showing that America is tending towards despotism too. I know it's hard for Europeans to compare someone with Nazi Germany, because they oftentimes feel like they were Satan himself. But they were not any worse than many throughout history. Alexander the Great brutally enslaved and massacred populations, so did the Mongols, so did the Crusaders, so did the communists. This historical trend has not disappeared in the 20th century and it could well show up someday in America's not-so-bright path. |
Sorry, I didn't want to be vexating. I don't think you are stupid, but that your comment comparing the US to nazi Germany, and saying the difference was only a difference in scale, yes this comment is stupid. Because the difference between the US as political and administrative entity, and nazi Germany as a political and administrative entity is considerably more complex than a difference in scale.
The presence of racist aszholes in the US, France, Germany, Canada, Japan, Papua New Guinea or wherever doesn't make these administrativo-political entities any similar to nazi Germany. And even when they enforce shameful racist decisions (which happens), the motivation and ideology behind it is not any similar with the genocidial hatred of the nazis for the Jewish "plague".
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Spiffor
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CPA - Evil Clone brigade
Nov 2001
time: 06:33
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Berzerker:
I remember this whole discussion between you and me started as you compared liberated European social democracies (including Germany, Italy, Belgium, Netherlands etc.) with "liberated" Kuwait.
Except for France, Netherlands and Belgium, which all had postcolonial wars to attend, with the horror that comes along, I don't believe there was any crime done by, say, Germany. Same thing for other countries that could escape both the nazi and soviet grasp, such as Sweden, Denmark or Norway (and even Austria).
When I deemed your comment as being "as stupid" as Oncle Boris' one, I did not mean nor imply that the number of crimes done by Kuwait in comparison to social democracies was as impressive as the number of crimes of nazi Germany in comparison to the US' (what I call a "quantitative" comparison). You understood it differently, maybe due to poor wording, certainly due to our two completely different worldviews. This is a typical misunderstanding.
What I meant and implied is that you used the same faulty logic, in short that you compare apples and oranges. To be clear: welfare systems in Europe exist because the populations wanted it - it ceased to exist where the population didn't want it anymore (UK). Or in your libertarian terms: the Europeans are free to decide to be economically free or not - I wonder who you are to criticize their free decision.
OTOH, the Kuwaitis have no choice in their ruler, in the collective rules that bind them, etc.
The fact that you consider welfare states to be dictatorships, although the decision to be in a welfare state lies by the citizen, makes you use a faulty logic, and this logic is exactly the same as Oncle Boris' (what I call a 'qualitative' comparison).
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05-01-2004 15:48
is over. 
I don't know why you, Sava, and O Boris have such trouble answering questions, but I suspect it has to do with the qualitative and not the quantitative nature of your assertions. 
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