05-01-2004 23:41									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: BTW, why ARE kids playing GTA:VC? Isnt it rated M or something? Probably because it may be the best game ever made?

dunno if it is or isnt - but like some movies, etc its not supposed to be for kids.

	05-01-2004 23:42									#32
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quote: but like some movies, etc its not supposed to be for kids.

BAH! I was watching R rated flicks when I was 12. We are too repressed. Kids can handle it.

	05-01-2004 23:46									#33
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Like so many other Frenchmen my age, I was watching "Ken le Survivant" (Hokuto no Ken, Ken of the North Star) when I was 5. It involved a badass hero killing dozens of punk with special Kung-fu, that had the punk's heads explode after a few seconds, in terrible gore, blodd and guts.

And look at me! I'm perfectl normal

	05-01-2004 23:47									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: but like some movies, etc its not supposed to be for kids. BAH! I was watching R rated flicks when I was 12. We are too repressed. Kids can handle it.

i wasnt asking for your opinion on the rating system. I was asking how the ratings systems, which the film and game industries like to trumpet when theyre attacked, are regularly evaded.

	05-01-2004 23:48									#35
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quote: dunno if it is or isnt - but like some movies, etc its not supposed to be for kids.

okay granpa, time for you to go to bed. I watched movies such as Carlitos Way, Scarface, The Godfather, Bloodsport, Lethal Weapon, etc. since before I was in school. Rest assured I grew up thinking all of the people in these movies were the sorriest bunch of losers ever, wasting thier time and lives over some white powder or "pride" and I was never told what to think of these movies by my parents, nor did they care that I watched them.

	05-01-2004 23:53									#36
	Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Dopes are suing to ban "Grand Theft Auto: Vice City&quo Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark quote: it's nothing more then a game Its a piece of culture - like a book, a movie, a song. It influences how we think and feel - thats what CULTURE does. Culture matters.

Way to completely ignore the argument and fish out a single phrase from the post to take out of context and create a new subject with.

I'll repeat: If kid's can relate to gangs wars and drug trafficing, games are the last thing we have to worry about.

I suppose you take the line of thought that kids buy Vice City, then take guns and drugs to school and start killing their friends and working for drug lords. how ridiculous is that.

Have you ever thought that it might be the gangs and drugs which already exist in their world that do the influencing? A video game is not going to create gang wars and drugs, but a society which is already full of gangs and drugs will make that subject matter more popular - and relevant.

	05-01-2004 23:57									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Space05us quote: dunno if it is or isnt - but like some movies, etc its not supposed to be for kids. okay granpa, time for you to go to bed. I watched movies such as Carlitos Way, Scarface, The Godfather, Bloodsport, Lethal Weapon, etc. since before I was in school. Rest assured I grew up thinking all of the people in these movies were the sorriest bunch of losers ever, wasting thier time and lives over some white powder or "pride" and I was never told what to think of these movies by my parents, nor did they care that I watched them.

I watched Godfather when i was old enough to watch it - over 16. It was still there. So i got to see it, and also got to have my childhood. Adulthood lasts long enough, sorry its the fashion (dare I say herd mentality?) these days to treat children as little adults. Also when i was older i was able to tell a masterpiece like Godfather (the movie, not the book) from the mass of violent trash. In fact if you cant understand that the characters in the Godfather were fighting over things of great importance, than you undoubtedly missed Coppollas point. Further proof that these movies arent suited to youngsters.

	05-01-2004 23:57									#38
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quote: I was asking how the ratings systems, which the film and game industries like to trumpet when theyre attacked, are regularly evaded.

You mean like they are for movies as well?

Ah the nanny state...

	05-01-2004 23:59									#39
	Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Dopes are suing to ban "Grand Theft Auto: Vice City& Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by Osweld Way to completely ignore the argument and fish out a single phrase from the post to take out of context and create a new subject with. I'll repeat: If kid's can relate to gangs wars and drug trafficing, games are the last thing we have to worry about. I suppose you take the line of thought that kids buy Vice City, then take guns and drugs to school and start killing their friends and working for drug lords. how ridiculous is that. Have you ever thought that it might be the gangs and drugs which already exist in their world that do the influencing? A video game is not going to create gang wars and drugs, but a society which is already full of gangs and drugs will make that subject matter more popular - and relevant.

the material world influences the world of culture. Check. and the world of culture influences the material world. Have you ever thought that gangs and drugs exist in minority communities at least in part as a response to despair, itself an indirect result of racism, itself a product of culture - including books, movies, minstrel shows, etc?

	06-01-2004 00:13									#40
	Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Dopes are suing to ban "Grand Theft Auto: Vice City Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark the material world influences the world of culture. Check. and the world of culture influences the material world. Have you ever thought that gangs and drugs exist in minority communities at least in part as a response to despair, itself an indirect result of racism, itself a product of culture - including books, movies, minstrel shows, etc?

Rascism is as old as race.

EDIT:
This seems to be a case of the chicken and the egg. But in this case, it seems to be culture that hatches from the egg.

	06-01-2004 00:15									#41
	Re: Re: Re: Re: Dopes are suing to ban "Grand Theft Auto: Vice City" Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark 1. send money back - what that got to do with it - you seem to be missing my point, which is that Haitian Americans are group IN THE USA, with problems IN THE US, of which racism, stereotyping, and police brutality are only a few. What does improving things in HAITI have to do with that?

they claim to be looking out for Haitian interests... but they aren't doing jackshit to help Haiti

quote: 2. Educate myself - erh, no I dont have to educate myself about every game that comes out that i dont feel like buying. If YOU, OTOH want to make the case I should buy it you can feel free to educate me. Im certainly NOT going to PAY to educate myself about this. Makes a good case for certain software practices I wouldnt otherwise avail myself of.

then don't comment on things you don't know anything about

quote: 3. Playing as Nazi soldiers - I assume you are playing as German soldiers, who werent all party members, and whose goal in the game is to kill allied soldiers, not to kill Jews, slavs, gypsies, gays, etc.

oh, so fighting for the survival of Nazi policies is fine, as long as you aren't actively engaging in them...

quote: 4. Russian and Italians mafia - I guess it would depend - would such a game actually say "go kill Italians" I think that might well be offensive.

fortunately, America has the first amendment, so we can't go around banning every little thing that some group finds offensive.

	06-01-2004 00:48									#42
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By your logic since poor, oppressed, minorities use drugs becasue they are poor oppressed minorities, then why do rich, majority, unoppressed people use them too? I guess we are all screwed.

Racism is a tired cliche that too many have been using to blame their problems on instead of the true source. THEMSELVES!

	06-01-2004 00:57									#43
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quote: By your logic since poor, oppressed, minorities use drugs becasue they are poor oppressed minorities, then why do rich, majority, unoppressed people use them too? I guess we are all screwed.

who me? wha?

quote: Racism is a tired cliche that too many have been using to blame their problems on instead of the true source. THEMSELVES!

yes, racism is just an illusion created by minorities while they plan to leech welfare...

	06-01-2004 01:19									#44
	Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Dopes are suing to ban "Grand Theft Auto: Vice City" Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Sava oh, so fighting for the survival of Nazi policies is fine, as long as you aren't actively engaging in them... fortunately, America has the first amendment, so we can't go around banning every little thing that some group finds offensive.

re soldiers
most soldiers are conscripts, and are in any case in a situation where they are fighting for their own lives and those of their comrades in arms. There are very good reasons why the allies prosecuted war criminals and not ordinary German soldiers. If you dont understand those reasons, its not my place to tell you.

First amendment - tell me where i advocated banning this game, or even supported the lawsuit against it. Seems to me alot of so called free speech advocates have rather thin skins - they interpret any ciriticism of what they like, even calling it offensive, as "banning" GTA is only a game - fine. What i posted was only a 'poly post. Suitable for viewing by minors. Relax, they'll survive it.

	06-01-2004 01:21									#45
	Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Dopes are suing to ban "Grand Theft Auto: Vice City" Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Sava then don't comment on things you don't know anything about

OOH, he wants to censor me, oooh 1st amendment. Did Rockstar research life in the Haitian community in Miami before publishing GTA:VC? Did they research the sociology of crime and poverty? I suspect not. Then i can comment on GTA:VC without friggin buying it. Free speech works both ways, ya know.

	06-01-2004 01:25									#46
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[q]Then i can comment on GTA:VC without friggin buying it. Free speech works both ways, ya know.[/q

Yeah, but then don't expect us to take a word you say seriously.

	06-01-2004 01:28									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui [q]Then i can comment on GTA:VC without friggin buying it. Free speech works both ways, ya know.[/q Yeah, but then don't expect us to take a word you say seriously.

fine, take it as seriously as you like. But I'll be damned if i have to support Rockstar in order to discuss them.

	06-01-2004 01:29									#48
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Imran, Sava, etc al: Is it really that important that the game says "Kill the Haitians" instead of, "Kill them?" Will it affect game play at all?

	06-01-2004 01:33									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Theben Imran, Sava, etc al: Is it really that important that the game says "Kill the Haitians" instead of, "Kill them?" Will it affect game play at all?

I suspect its the "principle" of the thing.

First they took away "kill the haitians" and i said nothing, for i didnt care about "kill the haitians". Then they took away "blood and gore" and i said nothing, for i didnt care about "blood and gore". then they took away "kill them" and there was no one left to speak for me, and i was condemned to playing the Sims.

You know the drill.

	06-01-2004 01:38									#50
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark fine, take it as seriously as you like. But I'll be damned if i have to support Rockstar in order to discuss them.

The game is a good one. Nad you know there are, um, ways to have precise knowledge of it without supporting Rockstar

I meant internet FAQs! Honest!

	06-01-2004 01:46									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor The game is a good one. Nad you know there are, um, ways to have precise knowledge of it without supporting Rockstar

Well this does provide a valid argument for err, doing some things on the net i normally wouldnt do.

While i would only do it for review purpose, im tempted to say - you wanna fill the culture with trash, YOU defend your friggin intellectual property rights.

My problem with that is when it effects decent developers, like Sid Meiers.

	06-01-2004 01:50									#52
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark I suspect its the "principle" of the thing. First they took away "kill the haitians" and i said nothing, for i didnt care about "kill the haitians". Then they took away "blood and gore" and i said nothing, for i didnt care about "blood and gore". then they took away "kill them" and there was no one left to speak for me, and i was condemned to playing the Sims. You know the drill.

They took away Gore in 2000.

	06-01-2004 01:51									#53
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark My problem with that is when it effects decent developers, like Sid Meiers.

I don't know, Sid Meiers is one of the guys I always gave money to.

	06-01-2004 01:55									#54
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Has anyone here played the game in question?

When they say "Kill the Haitians" do them mean any Haitians or specific Haitian drug dealers?

	06-01-2004 01:55									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Like so many other Frenchmen my age, I was watching "Ken le Survivant" (Hokuto no Ken, Ken of the North Star) when I was 5. It involved a badass hero killing dozens of punk with special Kung-fu, that had the punk's heads explode after a few seconds, in terrible gore, blodd and guts. And look at me! I'm perfectl normal

and do you support the govt of France in its attempts to make sure future revisions to the WTO dont prevent it from subsidizing French films to offset the influence of American "junk"?

	06-01-2004 01:57									#56
	Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Dopes are suing to ban "Grand Theft Auto: Vice City" Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark most soldiers are conscripts, and are in any case in a situation where they are fighting for their own lives and those of their comrades in arms. There are very good reasons why the allies prosecuted war criminals and not ordinary German soldiers. If you dont understand those reasons, its not my place to tell you.

But in the game they're just nazis.


Always heroic USA vs. Nazis. Just like in the movies.

	06-01-2004 01:58									#57
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara When they say "Kill the Haitians" do them mean any Haitians or specific Haitian drug dealers?

The members of the Haitian gang, since you work for the rival Cuban gang.
But the game makes it enjoyable to kill random civilians anyway.

quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark and do you support the govt of France in its attempts to make sure future revisions to the WTO dont prevent it from subsidizing French films to offset the influence of American "junk"?

Yes. I want to see more Japanese junk just like that

	06-01-2004 02:01									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: I was asking how the ratings systems, which the film and game industries like to trumpet when theyre attacked, are regularly evaded. You mean like they are for movies as well? quote: what part of 'film and game industires" did was unclear? Ah the nanny state...

two word cliches, kewl.

ah, the junk culture ....

	06-01-2004 02:01									#59
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quote: Imran, Sava, etc al: Is it really that important that the game says "Kill the Haitians" instead of, "Kill them?" Will it affect game play at all?

Is it really that big of a deal for the Cuban gang to say 'Kill the Haitians' instead of 'Kill them'? What's the big deal?

quote: When they say "Kill the Haitians" do them mean any Haitians or specific Haitian drug dealers?

The gang members. They have little arrows on them. Of course you can kill any other Haitians you like (along with everyone else in the game ), but they aren't asking you to engage in genocide or anything!

	06-01-2004 02:08									#60
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: Imran, Sava, etc al: Is it really that important that the game says "Kill the Haitians" instead of, "Kill them?" Will it affect game play at all? Is it really that big of a deal for the Cuban gang to say 'Kill the Haitians' instead of 'Kill them'? What's the big deal?

Personally? I could care less, since I'm not interested in the game.
I am a little curious about the context, though.