05-01-2004 20:50									#1
	Dopes are suing to ban "Grand Theft Auto: Vice City" Got spare money?

quote: Suit seeks to ban sales of popular video game WEST PALM BEACH, Florida (AP) --A lawsuit by Haitian groups that asks for the top-selling video game "Grand Theft Auto: Vice City" to be removed from store shelves will be decided in federal court. Haitian civil rights groups filed the lawsuit because the game instructs players to "kill the Haitians" and awards points for each kill. The suit was filed December 23 in state circuit court in Palm Beach County. Attorneys for Rockstar Games Inc. opted to move the case to federal court, and that motion was granted Tuesday. No hearing dates were immediately set. New York-based Rockstar Games has agreed to remove the offensive line from future versions of the award-winning video game that has sold 11 million copies. But the Haitian organizations, led by the Haitian-American Coalition of Palm Beach County, have also asked for more than $15,000 in damages. The lawsuit takes on heavyweights in the video game industry, including Rockstar Games, its parent company Take-Two Interactive Software Inc., Sony Computer Entertainment, the Microsoft Corp., and retailers Target, Wal-Mart and Best Buy. The manufacturer of the game, in which an ex-convict is hired to recover stolen drug money in the streets of Miami, has been harshly criticized for its portrayal of Haitians. Earlier this month, about 100 Haitian-Americans demonstrated outside a Wal-Mart Supercenter in nearby Boynton Beach chanting, "Stop Vice City." Attorneys for the Haitian organizations and the video game manufacturer did not return phone calls late Wednesday.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/TECH/fun.games/01/01/videogame.suit.ap/index.html

what a bunch of morons...

how about these Haitians worry about IMPROVING HAITI instead of bashing a video game... and they are suing for $15,000 for "damages"

okay... WHAT DAMAGES?!

I'm glad the US isn't a banning censorship country like New Zealand...

	05-01-2004 21:02									#2
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The fact this has even gotten a court date shows why we need tort reform. Why can't judges just toss such suits out with a laugh or a fine for wasting the court's time? Oh well, that's what happens when "hate speech" becomes a matter for the authorities...

	05-01-2004 21:11									#3
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by Berzerker The fact this has even gotten a court date shows why we need tort reform. Why can't judges just toss such suits out with a laugh or a fine for wasting the court's time? Oh well, that's what happens when "hate speech" becomes a matter for the authorities...

if there is such a reform that can be done without jeaporadizing the rights of citizens with "legitimate" complaints against companies to sue... then I'm for it... but unfortunately, most tort reforms are sponsored by corrupt, corporate-whore politicians seeking to dismantle the public's ability to hold big business accountable for it's immoral and destructive practices.

	05-01-2004 21:20									#4
	Suffering from ads?

I can understand where they're coming from. If the game said "Kill the Jews", it would never make it to any shelf.

However, I'm not sure exactly what damages there may be...

	05-01-2004 21:23									#5
	Re: Dopes are suing to ban "Grand Theft Auto: Vice City" Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by Sava : how about these Haitians worry about IMPROVING HAITI instead of bashing a video game...

Erh, maybe cause they are Haitian Americans who live in Miami, not in Haiti?

We dont have group libel in the US, and its hard to see this case going anywhere, but I'll be damned if I would buy a game that says "kill Haitians" Basically i agree with Emp Fab

	05-01-2004 21:31									#6
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quote: I'll be damned if I would buy a game that says "kill Haitians"

Yes, the game is totally about being racist and just killing Haitians for fun . I mean really, you should educate yourself about the context of that quote.

	05-01-2004 21:32									#7
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I'll have to remember the sensitivities of Greeks the next time I send my war elephants to trample them.

	05-01-2004 21:36									#8
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quote: Originally posted by The Emperor Fabulous I can understand where they're coming from. If the game said "Kill the Jews", it would never make it to any shelf.

I think it would, easily. In any country that doesn't have rampant censorship, anyways. Certainly not in germany, for instance.

	05-01-2004 21:39									#9
	Got spare money?

And then I'll play an ode for the Germans sent to Valhalla by my legions.

	05-01-2004 21:44									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Osweld I think it would, easily. In any country that doesn't have rampant censorship, anyways. Certainly not in germany, for instance.

I don't think it would arrive on the shelves in any western European country + Israel. And I think the Jewish community will remove the game from the shelves pretty quickly in the US or Canada.
That leaves countries who haven't experienced the nazi terror, nor have a structurated Jewish community. I guess Muslim countries would let the game on the shelves without any problems

	05-01-2004 21:47									#11
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: And I think the Jewish community will remove the game from the shelves pretty quickly in the US or Canada.

They'd TRY, but probably wouldn't succeed in getting it pulled off.

	05-01-2004 21:51									#12
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

There are a ton of movies and books that say such things which aren't banned. And I'm sure you could find that phrase somwhere, in some game.

I guess it depends on how popular it is, however...

	05-01-2004 21:53									#13
	Re: Re: Dopes are suing to ban "Grand Theft Auto: Vice City" Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark Erh, maybe cause they are Haitian Americans who live in Miami, not in Haiti?

what does that have to do with anything? can't they send money back? or join an activist group to help the country? oh no... all they do is ***** and moan about a video game and a benign comment.

quote: We dont have group libel in the US, and its hard to see this case going anywhere, but I'll be damned if I would buy a game that says "kill Haitians" Basically i agree with Emp Fab

Imran is right... you should educate yourself about the context of the quote.

Plus, people don't object to being able to play as Nazi soldiers in games like Day of Defeat and Battlefield 1942... I think that is "worse" than being a criminal and being told to kill gang members in an ethnic gang. What if in GTA:VC you are told to kill the Russian Mob? or the Italian Mafia?

	05-01-2004 22:10									#14
	Got spare money?

What's the point of banning games in these days of rampant piracy and warez downloading?

You got a problem with a game, you mod it to rectify it!

	05-01-2004 22:16									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Smiley What's the point of banning games in these days of rampant piracy and warez downloading? You got a problem with a game, you mod it to rectify it!

	05-01-2004 22:54									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: And I think the Jewish community will remove the game from the shelves pretty quickly in the US or Canada. They'd TRY, but probably wouldn't succeed in getting it pulled off.

No we wouldnt. But i think we wouldnt have to, no one at a publisher that cared for its reputation would publish such a game. Shame would stop them. I suppose the Haitians are frustrated that he the same shame doesnt apply in their instance.

	05-01-2004 23:00									#17
	Re: Re: Re: Dopes are suing to ban "Grand Theft Auto: Vice City" Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Sava what does that have to do with anything? can't they send money back? or join an activist group to help the country? oh no... all they do is ***** and moan about a video game and a benign comment. Imran is right... you should educate yourself about the context of the quote. Plus, people don't object to being able to play as Nazi soldiers in games like Day of Defeat and Battlefield 1942... I think that is "worse" than being a criminal and being told to kill gang members in an ethnic gang. What if in GTA:VC you are told to kill the Russian Mob? or the Italian Mafia?

1. send money back - what that got to do with it - you seem to be missing my point, which is that Haitian Americans are group IN THE USA, with problems IN THE US, of which racism, stereotyping, and police brutality are only a few. What does improving things in HAITI have to do with that?

2. Educate myself - erh, no I dont have to educate myself about every game that comes out that i dont feel like buying. If YOU, OTOH want to make the case I should buy it you can feel free to educate me. Im certainly NOT going to PAY to educate myself about this. Makes a good case for certain software practices I wouldnt otherwise avail myself of.

3. Playing as Nazi soldiers - I assume you are playing as German soldiers, who werent all party members, and whose goal in the game is to kill allied soldiers, not to kill Jews, slavs, gypsies, gays, etc.

4. Russian and Italians mafia - I guess it would depend - would such a game actually say "go kill Italians" I think that might well be offensive.

	05-01-2004 23:04									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Osweld There are a ton of movies and books that say such things which aren't banned. And I'm sure you could find that phrase somwhere, in some game. I guess it depends on how popular it is, however...

usually in a movie or book one character says it to another character, who does or doesnt carry it out. IIUC in GTA:VC the player is told to do it, and is in position to carry it out (within the game world) - something different - (but do give me specific examples from movies or books - i daresay some are equally objectionable)

And yes, popularity matters - its more of a concern if millions of kids are playing such a game than if a handful of hobbyists somewhere are playing such a game.

BTW, why ARE kids playing GTA:VC? Isnt it rated M or something?

	05-01-2004 23:08									#19
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: BTW, why ARE kids playing GTA:VC? Isnt it rated M or something?

ESRB can suck a big one for all anyone cares. the only people that pay attention to thier ratings are overprotective mothers. Ive been playing "Adult" games since they started rating things.

	05-01-2004 23:18									#20
	Re: Re: Re: Re: Dopes are suing to ban "Grand Theft Auto: Vice City" Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark 3. Playing as Nazi soldiers - I assume you are playing as German soldiers, who werent all party members, and whose goal in the game is to kill allied soldiers, not to kill Jews, slavs, gypsies, gays, etc.

Don't you get a purdy SS badge in wolfenstein: enemy territory?

quote: 4. Russian and Italians mafia - I guess it would depend - would such a game actually say "go kill Italians" I think that might well be offensive.

What about "go kill the italians" in reference to the mafia. That's the context in Vice City.

quote: usually in a movie or book one character says it to another character, who does or doesnt carry it out. IIUC in GTA:VC the player is told to do it, and is in position to carry it out (within the game world) - something different

How so?

Er, wait. The player isn't actually in the game, you realise, he is playing a character. Perhaps you're having difficulty telling reality apart from fantasy - I can see why you would find Vice City so disturbing, then.

	05-01-2004 23:19									#21
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I like the book comparison.

While something has to be said about the influence of video games on youth (although not to any degree to be worried about) books have spread racist, nationalistic, sectionist, or whatever ideas for centuries and can be blamed for millions of deaths. so I guess we should go through all the ooks with objectionable ideas. That includes WWII fition where we "go kill the Germans," "go kill the Russians" etc. etc.

And anyways, it in no way portrays killing anyone in a positive light. You are in fact a criminal and refered to as such. So it is only offensive if you condoned criminal activity and killing to begin with.

And if the group I am refering to, for whatever reason, happend to be of a uniform ethnicity, is it racism to refer to them as such. Like "Haitian" protestors. Man I am such a bigot.

	05-01-2004 23:21									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Space05us quote: BTW, why ARE kids playing GTA:VC? Isnt it rated M or something? ESRB can suck a big one for all anyone cares. the only people that pay attention to thier ratings are overprotective mothers. Ive been playing "Adult" games since they started rating things.

But the industry says that ESRB DOES protect kids from games designed for adults whenever anyone complains about game content. They arent LYING, are they Clearly an honest bunch of people, who need the full resources of the state to protect them from those who would steal their intellectual property NOT.

	05-01-2004 23:21									#23
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: And I think the Jewish community will remove the game from the shelves pretty quickly in the US or Canada. They'd TRY, but probably wouldn't succeed in getting it pulled off.

They'd at least get it altered. Remember back in Moo2? The Gnolam leader named ZOG? Who was short, had a big nose, and whose bonuses all revolved around making money? They got enough complaints that the named was changed to Grogg in patches (w/o any mention in the readme files).

btw, in case you haven't figured it out ZOG=Zionist Occupational Govt

	05-01-2004 23:25									#24
	Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Dopes are suing to ban "Grand Theft Auto: Vice City" Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by Osweld Don't you get a purdy SS badge in wolfenstein: enemy territory? LOTM - I wouldnt know - Ive never played it - are you surprised? What about "go kill the italians" in reference to the mafia. That's the context in Vice City. LOTM:If a game told the player "go kill the Italians" id have problems with it. Yup. Noting of course that Haitians suffer more from police brutality these days than Italians do. How so? Er, wait. The player isn't actually in the game, you realise, he is playing a character. Perhaps you're having difficulty telling reality apart from fantasy - I can see why you would find Vice City so disturbing, then.

thanks for the compliment.

A game is an immersive medium. Many players do, at least to some extent identify with their character - thats doesnt mean they cant tell fantasy from reality, its a natural reaction to an immersive medium - if theres no "willing suspension of disbelief" its probably not a good game. And i suspect this is even more true for the kids who make up a good portion of the audience for GTA.

	05-01-2004 23:25									#25
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: They'd at least get it altered. Remember back in Moo2? The Gnolam leader named ZOG? Who was short, had a big nose, and whose bonuses all revolved around making money? They got enough complaints that the named was changed to Grogg in patches (w/o any mention in the readme files). btw, in case you haven't figured it out ZOG=Zionist Occupational Govt

did they get paid to change it?

	05-01-2004 23:28									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Patroklos And if the group I am refering to, for whatever reason, happend to be of a uniform ethnicity, is it racism to refer to them as such. Like "Haitian" protestors. Man I am such a bigot.

It is very disturbing to refer to them as a group as such, in the context of killing. Like going from "lets kill the moneylenders" to "lets kill the Jewish moneylenders" to "lets kill the Jews" or from "lets kill the terrorists" to "lets kill the muslim terrorists" to "lets kill the muslims" Formulation 1 is ok (though even it can be nasty in context) formulation 2 is treading on thin ice, and formulation 3 is objectionable.

	05-01-2004 23:34									#27
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: BTW, why ARE kids playing GTA:VC? Isnt it rated M or something?

Probably because it may be the best game ever made?

	05-01-2004 23:35									#28
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this thread makes me want to go play GTA:VC, I'll tell you guys what is truely said when I get to the "kill the haitians" part, and rest assured, I will kill them.
I will also kill the bikers, cause I like thier bikes, and the cubans cause I like thier cars, and the rich hispanic guys cause they gots cash, and the hoes cause they're the real bad guys (they dont tell you the price in advance, and end up overcharging you cause "that alley ain't dark enough" or "that grass ain't green enough" stupid hoes! )

	05-01-2004 23:37									#29
	Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Dopes are suing to ban "Grand Theft Auto: Vice City" Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark A game is an immersive medium. Many players do, at least to some extent identify with their character

The same can be said about movies and books. Perhaps even more so, infact. Children and adults alike will often leave the theatre immitating one of the characters, or quoting their favorite lines, ect...

quote: thats doesnt mean they cant tell fantasy from reality

I was just wondering why you seem to be equating the game character with the player.

quote: if theres no "willing suspension of disbelief" its probably not a good game. And i suspect this is even more true for the kids who make up a good portion of the audience for GTA.

High speed chases, gang wars, drug trafficing, ect... should be enough for any kid to realise it's nothing more then a game, and far from their reality - if it isn't, then some video game is going to be the last of their worries.

	05-01-2004 23:40									#30
	Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Dopes are suing to ban "Grand Theft Auto: Vice City" Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by Osweld it's nothing more then a game,.

Its a piece of culture - like a book, a movie, a song. It influences how we think and feel - thats what CULTURE does. Culture matters.