06-01-2004 02:30									#61
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David Denby, "Buried Alive" (The New Yorker, 1996)

"Even if the child’s character is not formed by a single TV show, movie, video game, or computer game, the endless electronic assault obviously leaves its marks all over him.... Sold a bill of goods from the time they are infants, many of today’s children, I suspect, will never develop the equipment to fight off the system of flattery and propitiation which soothes their insecurities and pumps their egos. By the time they are five or six, they’ve been pulled into the marketplace. They’re on their way to becoming not citizens but consumers....
Whether the sets are off or on, the cruddy tone is in the air and on the streets. The kids pick it up and repeat it, and every week there are moments when I feel a spasm of fury that surges back and forth between resentment and self-contempt. In those moments, I don’t like the way my boys talk -- I don’t like the way they think. The crude bottom-line attitudes they’ve picked up, the nutty obsessive profanity, the echo chamber of voices and attitudes, set my teeth on edge. The stuff fits, and they wear it. What American parent hasn’t felt that spasm? Your kid is rude and surly and sees everything in terms of winning or losing or popularity and becomes insanely interested in clothes and seems far, far from courage and selfhood.

Aided by armies of psychologists and market researchers, the culture industries reach my children at every stage of their desires and their inevitable discontent. What’s lost is the old dream that parents and teachers will nurture the organic development of the child’s own interests, the child’s own nature. That dream is largely dead. In this country, people possessed solely by the desire to sell have become far more powerful than parents tortuously working out the contradictions of authority, freedom, education, and soul-making."

	06-01-2004 02:31									#62
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Has anyone here played the game in question? When they say "Kill the Haitians" do them mean any Haitians or specific Haitian drug dealers?

che, this is the kind of thing that pushes me towards Socialism.

	06-01-2004 02:36									#63
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: Imran, Sava, etc al: Is it really that important that the game says "Kill the Haitians" instead of, "Kill them?" Will it affect game play at all? Is it really that big of a deal for the Cuban gang to say 'Kill the Haitians' instead of 'Kill them'? What's the big deal?

Yeah, I agree. Context is a big factor here. And this is a game that thrives on being as offensive and violent as possible anyway. Don't you get points for killing cops?

	06-01-2004 02:37									#64
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LotM, it is capitalism that encourages these types of law suits, socialism that allows them, and democracy that tries them. If there were no socialism they would be laughed out of court like they should be. No one was physically hurt, no damages occured... cased closed. It is sociallism that brings in "my feelings" aspect of all this heading way to a law suit.

I think this is kind of like that guy in San Diego who tried to sue a club because they charged less for women; cost him nothing not to go if he didn't want to, but his feelings were hurt because he felt he was being discriminated agains... boo hoo

	06-01-2004 02:38									#65
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quote: Originally posted by Jac de Molay Yeah, I agree. Context is a big factor here. And this is a game that thrives on being as offensive and violent as possible anyway. Don't you get points for killing cops?

I think you get points for killing anything, and destroying anything

	06-01-2004 02:42									#66
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I wonder how much of that snippet comes from the traditional fear of our children? Dennis Byrne wrote an article denigrating Gen X over a decade back, which still burns me up. We fear what the market makes of our kids, and not without good reason. We want them to grow up to be whole human beings, rather than the stunted montsers known as consumers.

I'm not exactly sure we should be so worried. After all, the first generation to be raised on TV, the Boomers, fought for civil rights, women's rights, gay rights, and to end the Vietnam war, etc.. The first generation to be raised when Madison avenue understood the medium, Gen X, raged against the Gulf Wars, the WTO, against sweatshop slavery, etc.

One of the most endearing qualities of humans is that you can pump their minds full of garbage, and they still have the capacity to turn out as humans. Which isn't to suggest that its a universal or that we couldn't produce a better generation if we actualy tried nurturing them instead of turning them into little consumers.

I guess I'm not as worried, asI've seen this thing before.

	06-01-2004 02:54									#67
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quote: I think you get points for killing anything, and destroying anything

Rampages will get you big points... and of course get the cops on your ass.

	06-01-2004 02:57									#68
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark David Denby, "Buried Alive" (The New Yorker, 1996) "Even if the child’s character is not formed by a single TV show, movie, video game, or computer game, the endless electronic assault obviously leaves its marks all over him.... Sold a bill of goods from the time they are infants, many of today’s children, I suspect, will never develop the equipment to fight off the system of flattery and propitiation which soothes their insecurities and pumps their egos. By the time they are five or six, they’ve been pulled into the marketplace. They’re on their way to becoming not citizens but consumers.... Whether the sets are off or on, the cruddy tone is in the air and on the streets. The kids pick it up and repeat it, and every week there are moments when I feel a spasm of fury that surges back and forth between resentment and self-contempt. In those moments, I don’t like the way my boys talk -- I don’t like the way they think. The crude bottom-line attitudes they’ve picked up, the nutty obsessive profanity, the echo chamber of voices and attitudes, set my teeth on edge. The stuff fits, and they wear it. What American parent hasn’t felt that spasm? Your kid is rude and surly and sees everything in terms of winning or losing or popularity and becomes insanely interested in clothes and seems far, far from courage and selfhood. Aided by armies of psychologists and market researchers, the culture industries reach my children at every stage of their desires and their inevitable discontent. What’s lost is the old dream that parents and teachers will nurture the organic development of the child’s own interests, the child’s own nature. That dream is largely dead. In this country, people possessed solely by the desire to sell have become far more powerful than parents tortuously working out the contradictions of authority, freedom, education, and soul-making."

Yeah, this makes good points. But then whose problem is it? I think it's the parents, with their materialistic workaholic egos running wild, that are influencing these kids more than the Media. It's the same parents who made the TV the electronic babysitter, and then wonder why their kids can't be weened from its soul-sucking influence....

	06-01-2004 03:05									#69
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara I wonder how much of that snippet comes from the traditional fear of our children? Dennis Byrne wrote an article denigrating Gen X over a decade back, which still burns me up. We fear what the market makes of our kids, and not without good reason. We want them to grow up to be whole human beings, rather than the stunted montsers known as consumers. I'm not exactly sure we should be so worried. After all, the first generation to be raised on TV, the Boomers, fought for civil rights, women's rights, gay rights, and to end the Vietnam war, etc.. The first generation to be raised when Madison avenue understood the medium, Gen X, raged against the Gulf Wars, the WTO, against sweatshop slavery, etc. One of the most endearing qualities of humans is that you can pump their minds full of garbage, and they still have the capacity to turn out as humans. Which isn't to suggest that its a universal or that we couldn't produce a better generation if we actualy tried nurturing them instead of turning them into little consumers. I guess I'm not as worried, asI've seen this thing before.

ok, point taken but

1. in each generation you mentioned the activists were the minority.

2. Just being an activist doesnt mean you turned out a whole human being


3. I wonder how many of todays activists come from the minority of homes were electronic entertainment is radically limited?


4. The boomers were relative media innocents compared to todays kids. we had what, a half dozen tv stations? If you didnt like what was on them, you actually had to go out and play - now they have hundreds of TV stations, videos, consoles, the net, etc. The fact that in every era says "this is the collapse" doesnt mean the collapse can never occur.


In any case im not quite as worried as Denby is (partly because i see some parents successfully fighting the trend, in part inspired by Denby and others like him - their own form of activism - and partly cause there was a reevaluation post 9/11 - while that seems less strong now, i think things are still in a state of flux - of course thats precisely the time to do battle) - I do think he has some interesting things to say on the nature of childhood, parenting, media and soulforming.

	06-01-2004 03:07									#70
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quote: Originally posted by Jac de Molay Yeah, this makes good points. But then whose problem is it? I think it's the parents, with their materialistic workaholic egos running wild, that are influencing these kids more than the Media. It's the same parents who made the TV the electronic babysitter, and then wonder why their kids can't be weened from its soul-sucking influence....

Yet someone else who thinks parents should be around 24/7 to monitor their kids habits - womem should give up their careers so you dont have to see the media blamed, etc. Parenting isnt simple, you may find out someday.

	06-01-2004 03:10									#71
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quote: I think it's the parents, with their materialistic workaholic egos running wild, that are influencing these kids more than the Media. It's the same parents who made the TV the electronic babysitter, and then wonder why their kids can't be weened from its soul-sucking influence

I think it is the parents who are NOT influencing their kids enough and putting them in front of the TV babysitter. Parents need not be around their children ALL the time, but should be influential enough in their lives to know that TV is a form of entertainment and education, it is a tool, not a way of life.

	06-01-2004 03:12									#72
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to follow up further on che's points - most of the boomer parents whose kids are living on electronic junk are NOT former activists. Whereas i know a few former (and to some extent current) activists who take a different stand. One of the reasons in RL i like hanging out with those folks (good if we can keep the discussion off foreign policy )

And before someone says "aha! see you can keep the media from your kids, so it IS the parents fault" I will only say that it can be awfully hard on those parents, facing peer pressure on themselves, their kids, etc. We dont live as isolated individuals (or even on communes, anymore) we live in a broader society, and what happens in that society impacts all of us.

	06-01-2004 03:18									#73
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one more point re the personal experience thing

The crudeness/violence thing seems more of a boy thing. having had a girl, and no boy, i dont know how we would have dealt with it. The girl thing tends to be the popularity clothes-obsession thing. We managed to avoid that, whether through parenting, religion, or the fact that POTM was not in the "in-crowd" at school and was forced to develope an alternative identity, and has now moved on to a Gifted and talented program where she can hang with similar fashion challenged nerdy girls all day, I dont know.

Anyone here whos raising a boy?

	06-01-2004 03:24									#74
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LotM: I agree with you, but I still feel it is the parent's responsibility to monitor the childrens "habits". It is not like this is a 24/7 job, nor is instilling values and a sense of reality.

I am firm believer that parents these days do not know how to raise kids. An increasing number of grandparents seem to be raising their grandchildren. Also, you can't deny the fact that many of these people "who do not have time to spend with their children" still find time for themselves.

Also, having a child is a responsibility not only when you have them, or when your about to have one, but even when you are planning to have one. If you do not have the time now to dedicate to the child then what makes you think you will after the child is born? People, in general, have become irresponsible these days, and not only to themselves, but their children.

Parents also aging, why? Because people like to party more or plan these things later in life. I owe rising costs of real estate, increase median skilled labor numbers, and increases in childhood diseases to this irresponsibilty ppl seem to posses.

I do not blame media for the acts of people, I blame people...

	06-01-2004 03:25									#75
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Vice City

	06-01-2004 03:26									#76
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quote: The crudeness/violence thing seems more of a boy thing.

I agree.

Still, girls develop and mature quicker than boys which can owe to some of this.

	06-01-2004 03:48									#77
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark Yet someone else who thinks parents should be around 24/7 to monitor their kids habits - womem should give up their careers so you dont have to see the media blamed, etc. Parenting isnt simple, you may find out someday.

I never said they needed to be around their kids all the time. You can go from one end of the spectrum, completely isolating your kids to just asking questions about what their into/watching/listening to.

Most parents can't even be bothered with doing the latter. I grew up in a liberal two-income family with VERY little supervision, and yet my parents were cognizant enough of the cultural landscape to set limits on what I could watch on TV or movies.

Saying that the media is some amorphous, all-penetrating, omniscient force to mold children's minds is an absolute cop-out. I think the article makes points but acts as if the issue is "somebody else's problem", and that attitude alone is the real root of the problem.

	06-01-2004 03:55									#78
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quote: My problem with that is when it effects decent developers, like Sid Meiers.

Oh puleeze. I expect to murder, lie, and steal my way to fame and fortune on the Spanish Main pretty soon, courtesty of 'ol Sid.

	06-01-2004 04:49									#79
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quote: I watched Godfather when i was old enough to watch it - over 16. It was still there. So i got to see it, and also got to have my childhood. Adulthood lasts long enough, sorry its the fashion (dare I say herd mentality?) these days to treat children as little adults. Also when i was older i was able to tell a masterpiece like Godfather (the movie, not the book) from the mass of violent trash. In fact if you cant understand that the characters in the Godfather were fighting over things of great importance, than you undoubtedly missed Coppollas point. Further proof that these movies arent suited to youngsters.

you missed my point, or perhaps you think that The Godfather isn't a violent movie?

	06-01-2004 05:32									#80
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Amazing. I was playing this game just the other day and thought about the possibility of someone getting offended by that bit.

	06-01-2004 05:44									#81
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I stole three cars and killed a cop, and I sure as hell didn't stop with the Haitians....

Perhaps I should return the video game to Blockbuster?

	06-01-2004 06:51									#82
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Ha! Ban the AK? I got ten of them stashed, and a case of hand grenades!

Gen X

	06-01-2004 07:14									#83
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I never gave a rat's a** about the ratings system when I was a kid! We didn't have a rating system when I was a kid! We had censorship, because it was good for us! You will too if you know what's good for you!

I wonder what context the offensive statement: "Kill the Haitians" was used in. Was it used to refer to a specific group of characters, who just happened to be Haitians and hence their name, that the speaker wanted eliminated for a specific reason, or was it used in refference to Haitians in general. If the latter is the case then the phrase should be removed, as such outrageous bigotry offers a bad example for young minds. If the former is the case, then I vote for the phrase to stay in the game, since the nationality of the intended victim is obviously purely accidental, but the pursuit of the persons reffered to demonstrates sound business principles and the good old fashioned American wortk ethic to the young game player.

	06-01-2004 07:58									#84
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The context:
In Vice City, you play as a maffia guy who dreams of becoming a maffia boss. As you climb your way up, you work with the Cuban gang at some point (the gang structurated in the impoverished Cuban quarter), and they're enemies of the Haitian gang (the gang structurated in the very impoverished Haitian quarter).
In the game "Kill the Haitians" implies "Kill the members of the Haitians gang for the sake of the Cuban gang". However, the only people that are distinctly Haitians (i.e. blacks) in the game are members of the haitian gang. This means, everytime you recognize a character as being a Haitian, he is a gang member and your enemy.

	06-01-2004 08:02									#85
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It was used to refer to a specific gang of Haitians, who also happened to have arrows above their heads for easy identification.

Personally, I found GTA3 to be a better game than Vice City.

	06-01-2004 08:58									#86
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quote: Personally, I found GTA3 to be a better game than Vice City.

me too, I just dont like the feel of VC. Being too bright and pink might have something to do with it.

	06-01-2004 10:59									#87
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quote: Yet someone else who thinks parents should be around 24/7 to monitor their kids habits

So society should monitor kids 24/7? What was it Hillary said? It takes a village?

--

Oh, and also about 'Kill the Haitians' it's a mission given by the Cubans. That's the name of the mission (which is why it flashes on the screen). It is meant to kill Haitian gang members... and of course the mission name has to be descriptive (can't be 'Kill Them', because that's the whole game ).

	06-01-2004 11:12									#88
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random violence = wholesome fun

	06-01-2004 11:45									#89
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quote: In this country, people possessed solely by the desire to sell have become far more powerful than parents tortuously working out the contradictions of authority, freedom, education, and soul-making.

Note, that he uses the word parent, and not society, or government. He assumes that it is the responsibilty of the parent to raise their child. The parent may not be able to monitor the child 24/7 but they ought to know what games their child plays in their own house.

What about elsewhere, when the child plays with a friend? This is why it is much more effective to tell the child to wait. Rather than telling them they can't play this game, tell them that they will enjoy the game better when they are older. This is the approach of my parents to this situation, and I think it worked pretty well.

There is no need to censor the game, by the intervention of the government, let the parents do their job by staying involved in their children's life.

	06-01-2004 21:19									#90
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor The context: However, the only people that are distinctly Haitians (i.e. blacks) in the game are members of the haitian gang. This means, everytime you recognize a character as being a Haitian, he is a gang member and your enemy.

Now this I see as problematic. Anyone who's spent any time in Miami knows that most Cubans are Black. Race shouldn't be used as an identifier. Plus, there are a whole of a lot of African-American black folks in Miami also. In fact, between Little Havana and Little Haiti lies the Black slum of Overtown (and also the Design District).