08-01-2004 07:02									#1
	I don't really understand about Dean. Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

The dems have to know he's unelectable...

Makes McGovern look like a nazi. Repubs such as myself are thrilled Dean is doing so well. Don't the dems get it? Why do they stick w/ the guy?

Makes Bush a sure thing, right?

	08-01-2004 07:33									#2
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This is probably the worst troll I have ever seen.

	08-01-2004 07:35									#3
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And Tass would know, being the creator of fully 90% of the crap trolls here on Poly...

	08-01-2004 07:36									#4
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It's a troll, but I think it's a pretty accurate one. They ought to go with Wesley Clark. Over here, he's been getting more attention than Dean to the point where it wouldn't surprise me if most people thought Clark was in the lead.

	08-01-2004 07:37									#5
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Well, there hasn't really been that much material about the nomination yet, but you get the picture.

	08-01-2004 07:45									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten And Tass would know, being the creator of fully 90% of the crap trolls here on Poly...

Well, people fall for them, so....
Speaking of which, it seems as if people will begin falling for this one

	08-01-2004 07:50									#7
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Don't believe the spin, Lancer. Dean is pro-gun, pro-death penalty, and fiscally moderate to conservative. He is pegged as a leftie because he is an outspoken critic of the war, the President, and the Democratic Party. He's rather the to right of McCarthy, but becuase the media is lazy and the Repubs love to lie (and because the other Dem hopefulls will say anything to knock Dean down to try and get the nomination themselves), it's "convention wisdom" that Dean is some kinda leftie.

Frankly, all these folks saying Dean can't win, were also saying he'd never get the nomination in the first place. I think it's time to stop paying attention to the pundents and the "conventional wisdom." Stop being lazy and actually do some research on the candidates.

I myself do not like Dean, but I like the movement around Dean, which is exceedingly (small d) democratic.

	08-01-2004 07:51									#8
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I didn't intend this as a troll...

Reality a troll? Interesting!

	08-01-2004 07:55									#9
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"Don't believe the spin, Lancer. Dean is pro-gun, pro-death penalty, and fiscally moderate to conservative. He is pegged as a leftie because he is an outspoken critic of the war, the President, and the Democratic Party. He's rather the to right of McCarthy, but becuase the media is lazy and the Repubs love to lie (and because the other Dem hopefulls will say anything to knock Dean down to try and get the nomination themselves), it's "convention wisdom" that Dean is some kinda leftie.

Frankly, all these folks saying Dean can't win, were also saying he'd never get the nomination in the first place. I think it's time to stop paying attention to the pundents and the "conventional wisdom." Stop being lazy and actually do some research on the candidates.

I myself do not like Dean, but I like the movement around Dean, which is exceedingly (small d) democratic."

Interesting reply Che. I'd love to see replys to this post itself. Thoughts on Che's post people?

	08-01-2004 07:55									#10
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Reality is a revolutionary concept for most people.
The reality of the situation is that Dean is right of center, but like you said Lance, reality is a tough pill to swallow.

	08-01-2004 08:04									#11
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It is interesting that you mention you don't understand the appeal of Dean. Dean is a relative unknown relying on attacks of Bush.

I disagree with Che's characterization of Dean. On fiscal issues he is on record saying he would repeal all tax cuts meaning he would target middle class for tax increases. Lieberman shot him so fullof holes that he subsequently did a 180. His level of backtracking in order to attract moderates will be easily exploited by the Repubs as wishy washy. (Course OTOH as has so often been posted here, Bush is anti-free trade, big government, and now weak on immigration to pickoff targeted groups as well)

	08-01-2004 08:05									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Lancer I didn't intend this as a troll... Reality a troll? Interesting!

This post serves to confirm my original statement

	08-01-2004 08:22									#13
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quote: Thoughts on Che's post people?

Che is right.

	08-01-2004 08:24									#14
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I think I will take a look at Dean then.

Being a staunch Repub. I guess I need to, especially since Bush has been irking me.

	08-01-2004 08:35									#15
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Che is right. Probably Dean's defining characteristic is budget balancing. Fiscal responsibility. Repealing the entire tax cuts is a perfect manifestation of that. Most other Dems want to keep the tax cut for the poor and the middle class and just repeal the cuts for the rich; that's progressive taxation, a tenet of the Democratic party. Dean's stance is more Republican. He's not out on the fringe on almost any issue except gay marriage -- if you can consider that a fringe position when both houses of his state legislature had already passed the law -- and opposition to the war in Iraq, which is going to gain him more and more support over time.

	08-01-2004 08:42									#16
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Dean hasn't been the best self advocate, perhaps he should lay off the antiwar rhetoric a bit, since everyone has gotten that point already, and get the rest of his platform out.

Bush bashing will only get him so far, he needs to attract some more attention on the issues Che said, but I don't think he will do this. His record is skipping, and though there might be alot more song after the scratch, who would know?

	08-01-2004 08:43									#17
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What's so fringe about Dean's stance on gay marriage? He doesn't support it.

	08-01-2004 08:49									#18
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Frankly, all these folks saying Dean can't win, were also saying he'd never get the nomination in the first place.

Considering that not a single vote has been cast, I think assuming even that is a little arrogant. However his continual whining about attacks from Democrats & his continual flip flops on substantive policy issues doesn't give reason to think he'd do well when the Republicans come calling.

	08-01-2004 09:05									#19
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Don't believe the spin, Lancer. Dean is pro-gun, pro-death penalty, and fiscally moderate to conservative. He is pegged as a leftie because he is an outspoken critic of the war, the President, and the Democratic Party. He's rather the to right of McCarthy, but becuase the media is lazy and the Repubs love to lie (and because the other Dem hopefulls will say anything to knock Dean down to try and get the nomination themselves), it's "convention wisdom" that Dean is some kinda leftie. Frankly, all these folks saying Dean can't win, were also saying he'd never get the nomination in the first place. I think it's time to stop paying attention to the pundents and the "conventional wisdom." Stop being lazy and actually do some research on the candidates. I myself do not like Dean, but I like the movement around Dean, which is exceedingly (small d) democratic.

Well I see what Dean is doing. In order to win the Democratic nomiation he is using the anti Bush feelings to the left wing of the Democratic party to win the nomiation. Of course when he gets it he will try to get back to the center, but some of the things he has said about the war and Bush dont make me think he will be able to pull it off. The Republicans dont have to lie, they just point to his anti war stance as proof that he is liberal. I think right now Dean wants to be seen as a liberal.

	08-01-2004 09:06									#20
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Lack-o-substance. The guy hasn't put together a solid platform yet and has flip flopped so much it doesn't look like he'll be able to decide by the primary. All I'm hearing from the guy is "Bush did that, Bush failed here, Bush killed some kittens yesterday". Right now he's a major liability for the dems as he can't seem to send a clear message. Ultimately I think his candidacy will hurt the party and solidify another 4 years of Republican dominance.

	08-01-2004 09:10									#21
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I think that there is a fair amount of substantial criticism in this thread. I think a lot of these critiques were made about Bush 1st time around, too.

	08-01-2004 09:14									#22
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The whole move to the center is what both party's candidates are about.

Bush has gone left on a whole slew of issues in order to pickoff portions of what normally is solidly Dem votes.

His pre-emption move on Medicaid appeals to Seniors.
His anti free trade stances appeal to union interests.
His latest move to legalize illegals suggests a cozying up to Hispanics. The thing that all these moves suggests is that Bush/Rove may actually be worried about Dean else they wouldn't have sold out on those issues.

OTOH Dean is on record with a numberof very questionable statements that mostcertaibly willbe exploited by Repubs whenhe tries to go right towards center. I doubt his ability to convince voters he is centrist.

	08-01-2004 09:23									#23
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quote: Don't believe the spin, Lancer. Dean is pro-gun, pro-death penalty, and fiscally moderate to conservative. He is pegged as a leftie because he is an outspoken critic of the war, the President, and the Democratic Party. He's rather the to right of McCarthy, but becuase the media is lazy and the Repubs love to lie (and because the other Dem hopefulls will say anything to knock Dean down to try and get the nomination themselves), it's "convention wisdom" that Dean is some kinda leftie.

I wouldn't go that far.

	08-01-2004 09:26									#24
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While it's true Dean was a centrist governor, he has since moved to the left.

	08-01-2004 09:28									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe His pre-emption move on Medicaid appeals to Seniors.

Except senior by and large are not in favor of the bill or are at best unmoved by it. The AARP has caught tremendous flak for supporting it from its constituents.

quote: His anti free trade stances appeal to union interests.

He blew any political benefit by rescinding the tariffs, as it just pissed off the unions again.

quote: His latest move to legalize illegals suggests a cozying up to Hispanics.

This actually has merit, but I doubt it will garner him any significant support among Hispanics beyond what he ordinarily would get. It does solidify what support he would have, however.

quote: Dean is on record with a numberof very questionable statements that mostcertaibly willbe exploited by Repubs whenhe tries to go right towards center. I doubt his ability to convince voters he is centrist.

Don't be so sure. Politics involves short memories. Most Americans aren't paying attention to the race now. When they start paying attention, Dean will be playing the part of Mr. Centrist.

	08-01-2004 09:31									#26
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He's doing really well for where he started (a nobody). However, the presidential campaign takes discipline above all else -- to say what you precisely mean to say in the venue you mean to say it. Dean hasn't shown much discipline so far.

	08-01-2004 09:32									#27
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quote: However, the presidential campaign takes discipline above all else -- to say what you precisely mean to say in the venue you mean to say it.

Like Shrub does so well?

	08-01-2004 09:35									#28
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Boris I didn't say Bush's move to center were well received. personally I think they were bungled/ill advised.

Even the legalization of illegals polls poorly for Hispanics voters.

As for the short memories. Be well advised the warchest for the repubs is well stocked and more than ready to remind the voters. One thing is assured its going to be ugly with lies flying on both sides. Prepare to feel sleazy.

	08-01-2004 09:37									#29
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Shrub is a very disciplined politician. He's on message all the time. That's how he won the debates against Gore, for instance