13-01-2004 06:04									#121
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Neither Gore nor Clinton want a Democrat victory this time around -- hence their candidates of choice.

	13-01-2004 06:20									#122
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

In my opinion, Dean should go Left and stay there.

In talking to my wife yesterday I said that the Democrats are in danger of becoming akin to 1970s-era Republicans - politicians who say "Me too, but not as much." It isn't until the Repubs moved right (Reagan-Gingrich) that a truly discernable difference between the two parties became apparent for the first time since the '50s. Now the Democrats have to go through the same painful process... and I'd prefer it to be sooner rather than later.

Why? Because difference of opinion is good, because change is good, and a world where everybody kinda, sorta, holds the same opinion is a world of stagnation and paralyzation, a place where boldness recedes and solutions are not based upon ideas but upon friendships.

The worst thing that can happen to the Democratic primary is for Lieberman (or another Bush-lite) candidate to win. And it won't begin to be rejuvinated until they decide to re-energize their base and stop being Conservative-Lite, as the Repubs did in the 80s/early 90s when they decided to be (or claim to be) truly "conservative" rather than Liberal-Lite.

However, I don't think that Dean will win the election if he follows the above strategy, but it can be something the Dems can build on, rather than sitting around saying "What went wrong? Why, we're just not as popular as those other guys - let's act even more like them!"

	13-01-2004 06:23									#123
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Good read. What the Left (including me) has been saying for years.

	13-01-2004 06:42									#124
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I have one criticism of this thread: STOP USING QUOTE MARKS TO QUOTE THINGS

There's a reason we have a [q] tag

	13-01-2004 07:11									#125
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Why would the other candidates move their support to Clark? He is a Republican, after all.

So was Clinton, essentially. The best moderate Republican president we've had in decades.

	13-01-2004 09:05									#126
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quote: So was Clinton, essentially. The best moderate Republican president we've had in decades.

And the man did wonders for the Repubs and squat for the Dems. I think, in terms of the Democratic Party at least, that Bill Clinton is the perfect example of what's wrong with them: His "me too, but not as much" conservatism has led the Dems to believe that is the way to go.... unfortunately, they don't have the charm or the political skill to pull it off. And while Bill Clinton might've been good for Bill Clinton, he hasn't really been good for the Democratic Party precisely for the reason I articulated above.

	13-01-2004 09:17									#127
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JohnT, those were two of the more insightful posts I've read in a while, especially on this subject. And certainly coming from a non-liberal.

	13-01-2004 09:27									#128
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT And the man did wonders for the Repubs and squat for the Dems. I think this, in terms of the Democratic Party at least, that Bill Clinton is the perfect example of what's wrong with them: His "me too, but not as much" conservatism has led the Dems to believe that is the way to go.... unfortunately, they don't have the charm or the political skill to pull it off. And while Bill Clinton might've been good for Bill Clinton, he hasn't really been good for the Democratic Party precisely for the reason I articulated above.

I certainly wouldn't argue. Frankly, I think Clinton's worst legacy wrt the Democrats is his crony Terry McAuliffe running the DNC. He's a complete knee-biter, and should have been run out on a rail after the 2002 midterm elections.

That, and the Clintons' certain behind-the-scenes operating to thwart Dean, are two of the biggest problems with the Dems right now.

	13-01-2004 09:35									#129
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov I certainly wouldn't argue. Frankly, I think Clinton's worst legacy wrt the Democrats is his crony Terry McAuliffe running the DNC. He's a complete knee-biter, and should have been run out on a rail after the 2002 midterm elections. That, and the Clintons' certain behind-the-scenes operating to thwart Dean, are two of the biggest problems with the Dems right now.

IOW, he's not all bad.

	13-01-2004 09:36									#130
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NAFTA was good too...

	13-01-2004 11:13									#131
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I think the only problem for Bush now is unemployment levels. He has to get that turned around but if he does, he is unbeatable. Landslide.

Looking ahead I'll peg Edwards as a possible VP nominee and Mrs. Clinton's main opponent for the White House next time round.

	13-01-2004 20:26									#132
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Thanks for the props, Guynemer.

	13-01-2004 20:55									#133
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quote: Originally posted by TCO NAFTA was good too...

	13-01-2004 22:41									#134
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Howard Dean - Affirmative Action for thee, but not for me.

	13-01-2004 23:08									#135
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Lemme just toss this into the pot.

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2...edia/index.html

quote: One staple of news and opinion stories that cast Dean as headed for a McGovern-style drubbing is a fair-seeming grounding in Democrats' worries that Dean can't win. But it's worth noting that such stories almost never name these Democrats -- except the other candidates for the nomination -- who are allegedly wringing their hands over Dean. For its 2,800-word cover story last week, Newsweek found just one for an on-the-record quote: former Clinton aide James Carville. Syndicated columnist Novak filled an entire Dec. 22 dispatch about the "Dean dilemma" by referring vaguely to "thoughtful Democrats," "a sage Democratic practitioner," "a party loyalist" and "Democratic savants," all anonymous, who were all sick about Dean's surge. Novak never bothered to tell readers if any of those unnamed Democrats had ties to Dean's campaign competitors.

	13-01-2004 23:43									#136
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A recent poll among Democrats said they were equally comfortable with Dean or Clark being the nominee, both easily beating out the other Dems. This is where the Dems will kill themselves, by laying a foundation of "unelectibility" during the primaries that will come back to sting later on.

	14-01-2004 00:13									#137
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Betcha Dean crushes Bush.

	14-01-2004 00:18									#138
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I'll put $50 on Bush. So either way, I can have something to celebrate.

	14-01-2004 00:55									#139
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"Crushes"?

Not likely. I think he has a good chance to win, roughly 50/50, but no way anybody gets crushed in November--barring a last-minute revealation of cannibalism and virgin sacrifice.

	14-01-2004 00:56									#140
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Betcha Dean crushes Bush.

I'll take that bet. 10$ on Bush. This whining from his campaign about people attacking him is starting to get on my nerves anyway.

	14-01-2004 01:01									#141
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$60 profit easy!

	14-01-2004 01:02									#142
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I'll hold you to that, che.

	14-01-2004 01:02									#143
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I might take that bet too; when you say "crush", what are we talking about here? What's your point spread? Is it electoral votes or popular votes?

	14-01-2004 01:04									#144
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc I'll take that bet. 10$ on Bush. This whining from his campaign about people attacking him is starting to get on my nerves anyway.

What are you talking about? Today's the first time he's complained about the other candidates attacking him so much.

	14-01-2004 01:07									#145
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On the other hand the Bushies have been complaining about angry Democrats for over a month now.

	14-01-2004 01:08									#146
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov What are you talking about? Today's the first time he's complained about the other candidates attacking him so much.

It's been going on since at least the 30th: http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS...dean.democrats/

I don't make this stuff up people.

	14-01-2004 01:12									#147
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DD, that's not Dean "whining" or even complaining about attacks against him. It's him expressing a viewpoint that there's too much infighting going on among Democrats in general in the election so far. That's called taking the high road, not whining.

	14-01-2004 01:12									#148
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quote: Originally posted by Guynemer I might take that bet too; when you say "crush", what are we talking about here? What's your point spread? Is it electoral votes or popular votes?

54/46 Dean/Bush in the popular vote, but closer in the electoral because of all those unpopulated red states.

	14-01-2004 01:17									#149
	Tired of ads?

I'll take Bush + 5 percentage points for $20.

	14-01-2004 01:19									#150
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Did those numbers come to you in a dream, vision or drug-induced hallucination, che?