09-01-2004 10:07									#31
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This has got to be a joke.

In other news, Bush has decided to put poor people in labor camps to cover the budget deficit...

	09-01-2004 10:08									#32
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Polymer ships? Polymers are usually made with carbon (IIRC). Silicon makes glass and semiconductors, not much else. Spaceships use a lot of metal. Plus where does the fuel come from? The moon has no water. And if you're going to build stuff off earth then why waste the delta-v to put it on the moon instead of a nice high orbit?

I seem to remember something found on the moon that could be used for polymer construction. I will try to find some kind of link. Until then I defer to you as I am aware that most polymers are in fact carbon chains.

I was also under the impression that there was ice found on the moon.

wasting delta-v for a moon push is relatively negligble compared to a high Earth orbit but still a waste. The scenario of a moon base should include some type of cost effective production(or at the very least production that can be made cost effective in a reasonable amount of time)

	09-01-2004 10:08									#33
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse And moon is notoriously lacking in heavier elements (i.e. all the metals). What shall we do with silicon dioxide What shall we do with silicon dioxide What shall we do with silicon dioxide And no iron?

Go look up "iron" and "basalt", and come back, okay?

	09-01-2004 10:09									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Big Crunch Point being that its not keeping things up that's the costly bit.

Sorry. I misunderstood your point.

	09-01-2004 10:09									#35
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Part of the problem is that we are not building the right kind of expertise in operating in space. The blather about "its impossible to do a repair in space" from NASA after Columbia (without having even looked at it) is indicative of the problem. The spam in a can and look good for the kiddies PR crap is part of the problem. We need to learn how to operate. Just how submariners and aviators did.

	09-01-2004 10:09									#36
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deleted. Just realized the point I made was irrelevant.

	09-01-2004 10:09									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo This has got to be a joke. In other news, Bush has decided to put poor people in labor camps to cover the budget deficit...

Don't you ever tire of being so negative?

	09-01-2004 10:10									#38
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Not when the gov't is concerned.

	09-01-2004 10:14									#39
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quote: Originally posted by The Mad Monk Go look up "iron" and "basalt", and come back, okay?

AFAIK lunar surface is extrememly light rock. Significant and usable quantities of metals aren't to be found anywhere near surface (at least this has always been my impression).

Do you have any sources to back up your claims? I did a quick google search and could not find anything useful.

	09-01-2004 10:17									#40
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http://aerospacescholars.jsc.nasa.g...cirr/em/8/4.cfm

	09-01-2004 10:22									#41
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http://science.nasa.gov/newhome/hea...f/materials.pdf

	09-01-2004 10:24									#42
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quote: Originally posted by The Mad Monk http://aerospacescholars.jsc.nasa.g...cirr/em/8/4.cfm

GREAT LINK!!!

quote: It is estimated that transporting material from the Earth to the moon would cost $25,000 per pound! Therefore it is imperative that we use resources already on the moon to offset the cost. Of all the resources available, the lunar regolith is the most accessible and most easily converted into construction materials. Lunar regolith contains oxygen, silicon, magnesium, iron, calcium, aluminum and titanium.

	09-01-2004 10:24									#43
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Has a lot of stuff on how much aluminum there is, but very little mention of actual concentration of iron.

Gives percentage of free iron in lunar basalt as 0.5% (very low, IIUC), does not mention percentage of chemically-bound iron.

You can't build spaceships out of aluminum...

	09-01-2004 10:26									#44
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The second one is a paper.

	09-01-2004 10:28									#45
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Read the second one (well, scanned it)

No mention of actual concentrations.

Very dubious of mining lunar basalt for metals other than aluminum.

I think those NASA pages are overly optimistic.

	09-01-2004 10:33									#46
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http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/moon98/pdf/6007.pdf

	09-01-2004 10:33									#47
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse I think those NASA pages are overly optimistic.

And your source for this opinion?

	09-01-2004 10:34									#48
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That everything I've ever read has always mentioned the paucity of lunar material in heavier metals.

	09-01-2004 10:36									#49
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quote: Originally posted by The Mad Monk http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/moon98/pdf/6007.pdf

This is a better source.

Seems high to me (to have surface iron concentrations around 10%)

If it's true, then that improves suitability of moon as launching point.

Still not as good as a Ni-Fe asteroid though.

	09-01-2004 10:40									#50
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Still not as good as a Ni-Fe asteroid though.

Without a doubt, but what would the expense of moving an asteroid into HEO? Not to mention the danger from a botched entry into its orbit.

A moon base that works would truly open the solar system to us. The best part is that it looks like it is plausible!

	09-01-2004 10:42									#51
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse This is a better source. Seems high to me (to have surface iron concentrations around 10%) If it's true, then that improves suitability of moon as launching point. Still not as good as a Ni-Fe asteroid though.

Its already in a stable orbit where you don't have to worry about it crashing into Earth or some satellites tommorow. More significantly the amount of gravity on the Moon should increase the ease of construction considerably in comparison to what you would have with an astroid. (Its not as easy at it looked in the movie Armageddon! )

	09-01-2004 10:42									#52
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No problem with asteroids, I just think we should hit the moon first.

It wil be good experience for our forays onto other worlds -- which is critical to our long-term survival.

	09-01-2004 10:46									#53
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Well here is a little paper on non carbon polymers I found. Not exactly what I was looking for but on the right track I think.

http://www.chemistry.mcmaster.ca/fa...ook-book-99.pdf

	09-01-2004 10:47									#54
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse And no iron?

Archer rush?

	09-01-2004 11:20									#55
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO Thanks Spiffor. Watching the first man step on the moon live is something you young whippersnappers can never have

Now according to some Apolytoners, that first moon landing was all just propaganda -- smoke and mirrors.

	09-01-2004 11:22									#56
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Ok, if we can move an iron asteroid into HEO, but are worried about a miscalulation that would send it crashing to the Earth, why do we move it and crash it into the moon on purpose?

It would be a one time expense of getting out to the asteroid.
A one time cost of moving materials.
And we could then build a Lunar base somewhat close to where we crashed the Iron and then go mine it at our lesisure.

	09-01-2004 11:23									#57
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quote: Polymer ships? Polymers are usually made with carbon (IIRC). Silicon makes glass and semiconductors, not much else. Spaceships use a lot of metal.

Not if we detonate an explosion in Nuclear Waste Disposal Area 2 and hurl the moon towards Mars ala

	09-01-2004 11:31									#58
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This is the kiss of death for NASA.

We are talking about Bush, a guy who consistently lies and who doesn't know the meaning of truth.

Everytime he praises a government program, he turns around and cuts it budget.

When Bush actually gives NASA more money, then I'll believe him. Right now, his talk is cheap.

	09-01-2004 12:23									#59
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Man, this would be sooooooo cool. Like sooo cool.



I'd like the base on the moon over mars trip, though doing both is as I said cool.

	09-01-2004 14:57									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Lorizael deleted. Just realized the point I made was irrelevant.

It's more polite to allow others the pleasure of pointing that out.