17-01-2004 10:48									#241
	Space Shuttle and Space Telescope have been CANCELLED Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Don't know if anyone has mentioned this yet, I know the shuttle was mentioned, but the shuttle is set to retire in 2010 and the Space Telescope is set to retire ASAP.

I can understand cutting the shuttle (about damn time) but it would be nice to still have the space telescope around. There isn't any other piece of equipment that could possibly replace it.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/TECH/space/...e.ap/index.html

	17-01-2004 10:50									#242
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All in all though I think this is a great push by Bush. (What a rhymer I am).

The shuttle program should have been scrapped a LONG time ago.

	17-01-2004 11:13									#243
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oh i just read that there is a better telescope set to go up in 2011

Hubble will die off in 2008

	17-01-2004 11:34									#244
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With a moon base, we could build immense telecopes on the moon, at a much lower cost.

	18-01-2004 02:03									#245
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker All in all though I think this is a great push by Bush. (What a rhymer I am). The shuttle program should have been scrapped a LONG time ago.

Wrong, the Shuttle program should never have been built in the first place. Any craft that could not go to the Moon was a strategic mistake as it was a major step backwards in capability.

	18-01-2004 02:10									#246
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How will they deal with dust on the moon? I can see it clogging/covering everything in a very short time, including telescopes.

	18-01-2004 02:39									#247
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theres no wind, so the only dust that would matter would b stuff we kicked up ourselves, right?

	18-01-2004 02:44									#248
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quote: Originally posted by Uber KruX theres no wind, so the only dust that would matter would b stuff we kicked up ourselves, right?

Which could be a considerable amount.

	18-01-2004 02:46									#249
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well, i'm assuming biospeheres would be set up. once the building was created, there wouldn't be "moon dust" inside.

there would be regular dust though, wouldn't there? from dead skin cells et al.

	18-01-2004 03:18									#250
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Everybody at Hopkins' extremely large astro community is up in arms about this. There's a good likelihood that Bush's plan for NASA's budget will destroy any hope of next-gen space telescopes, and a certainty that it will force an early retirement of Hubble.

	18-01-2004 03:23									#251
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Wrong, the Shuttle program should never have been built in the first place. Any craft that could not go to the Moon was a strategic mistake as it was a major step backwards in capability.

No, the shuttle was a good program, in it's time. There are plenty of other things we can learn from space besides going to the moon.

The shuttle drastically reduced the costs. The Apollo program was insanley expensive.

It was a good program. But now it's time to move on to bigger and better things.

	18-01-2004 03:25									#252
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Well, there was a big debate about when to retire Hubble. I don't think this moves up the retirement much. And it's not likely to upset plans for the follow-on telescope. What some in the astro community (JH) may have been looking for is a funding double-dip: ramp up funding on the follow-on telescope while keeping Hubble as is. Their hopes may have been running a little ahead of reasonable expectations.

The fact is that Shuttle and the Space Station need to go ASAP. There is a $5.5 billion annual unproductive hole in the space budget because of these programs right now. These programs, especially Shuttle, are contractor wet dreams. Do nothing but maintenance and get paid billions to do it every single year.

The Shuttle was great, but needed retirement earlier. The Station was ill advised from the beginning, because it isn't a building block for any other goals.

Last edited by DanS on 18-01-2004 at 03:37

	18-01-2004 03:38									#253
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Moves up retirement at least 5 years according to my sources

BTW, the control centre to Hubble is across the street from my building.

	18-01-2004 03:39									#254
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See my DanS above regarding those astro boys wanting to double-dip.

	18-01-2004 03:40									#255
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They wanted to keep Hubble operating until next telescope came online. It's not good for data to come in fits and starts. Leads to a lot of unproductive years.

	18-01-2004 03:40									#256
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I know that's what you were saying, but I don't think that was a secret...

Will make for a lot of hungry mouths. I think a lot of them are feeling betrayed.

	18-01-2004 03:43									#257
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I agree that it was no secret. And I would expect the astro boys to want to double dip -- if you can, then there's no harm trying. But hope and funding don't necessarily always coincide 100%.

	18-01-2004 03:44									#258
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Budget for science work now actually decreases significantly over next five years, BTW.

	18-01-2004 03:46									#259
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What do you classify as science work?

	18-01-2004 03:52									#260
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Don't know how it was divided. Saw a breakdown of NASA budget. Was divided into Mars work, Shuttle work, ISS work and pure science

Shuttle and ISS disappear completely in next little while

Science goes down and then climbs slowly

Mars stuff goes up through about 20% (?) increase in NASA overall budget and by taking money from the other stuff.

	18-01-2004 04:03									#261
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I haven't seen any budget figures that aren't back-of-the-envelope. I'm skeptical of any unofficial classifications at this point, especially since the plan appears to wrap at least some of the quasi-science stuff, like advanced propulsion systems, into the Moon/Mars budget.

FYI, the 20% increase would have been about 15% without the Moon/Mars plan.

	18-01-2004 04:14									#262
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quote: Budget for science work now actually decreases significantly over next five years, BTW.

Bastards!

	18-01-2004 05:02									#263
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KH, those Hubble people need to get a plan together for a telescope on the moon.

	18-01-2004 06:41									#264
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--"No, the shuttle was a good program, in it's time."

Not really. There were better options presented at the time, the current shuttle was just chosen because it had the smallest up-front costs. Given that it's never even come close to achieving the flight capability promised, it was a bad deal all around.

Wraith
"If you try hard enough you can make any language FORTRAN."
-- NASA

	18-01-2004 06:58									#265
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shoulda coulda woulda

	18-01-2004 07:03									#266
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quote: Originally posted by DanS The Station was ill advised from the beginning, because it isn't a building block for any other goals.

I don't know if I entirely agree with this. The space station is affording us the opportunity to evaluate how componets made by different agencies than NASA can all work together with the NASA based product. It affords the same opportunity to the other agencies as well. This may supply some utility in making a standardized world space program in the future which will be necessary for real colinization efforts.

	18-01-2004 07:07									#267
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true

any step means we can learn alot of valuable information

plus like you said seeing how certain components hold up over the long term, that kind of information is invaluable

	18-01-2004 10:23									#268
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quote: Originally posted by Verto Which could be a considerable amount.

There no air, hence no Brownian motion, hense nothing to keep the stuff, um, "airborn". Ground structures shouldn't get much dustier than things already get in LEO.

	18-01-2004 10:29									#269
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Don't know how it was divided. Saw a breakdown of NASA budget. Was divided into Mars work, Shuttle work, ISS work and pure science Shuttle and ISS disappear completely in next little while Science goes down and then climbs slowly Mars stuff goes up through about 20% (?) increase in NASA overall budget and by taking money from the other stuff.

I don't mind that (I understand those that do ). I have no problem with a temporary decrease in science now if it will mean we can do better science cheaper in the future.

	18-01-2004 10:58									#270
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO You sure have been on an anti-American roll here the last few days. More so than normal. IMHO, the only way we will be able to permanently colonize other planets would be an international effort. At some point the efforts of the spacefearing nations must be combined for all our common good.

I don't know.
In the short term, cooperation is better.
But competition has driven many great projects (like the first space race) and i think some healthy competition beetween china with some russian help (and maybe other too) and europe and us on the other side maybe will get things going much faster.