10-01-2004 23:01									#151
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quote: It will be an excellent waypoint in the future.

It will never be a waypoint because of where it stands in low earth orbit. That's a fact.

	10-01-2004 23:08									#152
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quote: Originally posted by DanS It will never be a waypoint because of where it stands in low earth orbit. That's a fact.

Good point. It would need to be in HEO to be effective as a waypoint. I stand corrected.

	10-01-2004 23:29									#153
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OK, so what is this $2 billion per annum white elephant good for, now that we agree it's not going to be a waypoint?

	11-01-2004 01:47									#154
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It's a research lab, once we get the lab parts up there.

	11-01-2004 05:43									#155
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quote: Originally posted by DanS OK, so what is this $2 billion per annum white elephant good for, now that we agree it's not going to be a waypoint?

Not much -- it was worth a lot more before the accountants chopped it into barely-sustaiable bits.

	11-01-2004 07:47									#156
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Why bother with iron? Aluminium's quite strong enough to build a spacecraft out of, provided you don't expect it to land somewhere with an atmosphere. If there's ice on the moon then things look even better - with solar power and electrolysis you've got oxygen for life support and hydrogen/oxygen for fuel. Imagine a bunch of reusable launchers operating from the moon, shipping aluminium girders and solar panels to earth orbit, without worrying about atmospheric reentry or a gravity well as deep as the one we're stuck in. After the ruinous initial expense, it ought to be cheaper than lifting the same materials from earth.

If there's no ice, the same effect could be achieved with a linear accelerator running on nothing but solar power, albeit for an even greater investment. Unfortunately, all this depends on a way to refine lunar rock with lightweight apparatus, almost no reagents, and minimal human intervention. I'd say this is the biggest technological stumbling block left.

Despite all this, the devil of pessimism on my other shoulder tells me that Bush doesn't intend to do anything about it - he just wants to provide his electorate with something harmless to think about. Or perhaps he does earnestly believe that space exploration is a worthwhile thing to do, but will forget all about it in a few weeks when one of his advisors distracts him with something shiny.

	11-01-2004 07:52									#157
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO You sure have been on an anti-American roll here the last few days. More so than normal.

Sorry, I must have felt more countertrollish than usual

	11-01-2004 08:19									#158
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quote: You mean the Chinese would IMITATE what the Americans did when Sputnik and then Gagarin hit Space first?

Revisionist! Sputnik and Gagarin were just communist propaganda.

	11-01-2004 13:54									#159
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara It shouldn't break. Kitty, if we put a national effort into contruction of a space elevator, I think we could probably get it to work well before a century out. The basic components already exist. We just need to figure out a way to manufacture them in usable lengths. Surely no more than a couple of decades.

The basic components (i.e. carbon nanotubes) are on bleeding edge of workability.

Not a good bet to use them since there's no safety factor at all.

Need something at least twice as load-bearing per unit weight as them.

Probably can be built sometime around 2100. I think materials science is a good place to put some science money for future development.

But don't plan on taking a ride on it before you're very, very old.

	11-01-2004 14:49									#160
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Gotta build that Space Elevator!

	11-01-2004 18:51									#161
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse The basic components (i.e. carbon nanotubes) are on bleeding edge of workability.

No. They are not. Significant real development required to make cables and long fibers. Noone has done it even on a lab scale. Yes they exist chemically. Noone has even characterized their tensile properties in a multifilament macroscopic fiber.

	11-01-2004 18:53									#162
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Pointing out actual individual strength. It's "possible" theoretically, but not really workable. Trying to point that out.

	11-01-2004 22:40									#163
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Definitely not here yet, though ya won't have to wait until the 22nd century for it either. Don't any of you have any memory of how long it took for things such as computer networking or genetics to go from theoretical to where they are now?

	11-01-2004 22:42									#164
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Just read the paper today, Bush does plan on increasing NASA's budget, something around 5%, and diverting funding from the space shuttle program to the new programs.

	11-01-2004 23:06									#165
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse The basic components (i.e. carbon nanotubes) are on bleeding edge of workability. Not a good bet to use them since there's no safety factor at all. Need something at least twice as load-bearing per unit weight as them. Probably can be built sometime around 2100. I think materials science is a good place to put some science money for future development. But don't plan on taking a ride on it before you're very, very old.

I guess we should finish The Longevity Vaccine first.

	11-01-2004 23:42									#166
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The US Govt already puts a massive amount more of cash into medical research than into NASA.

	12-01-2004 00:33									#167
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More research hospitals and biology labs can only be a good thing.

	12-01-2004 15:17									#168
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At some point, perhaps soon, we have to allow private individuals and companies to buy and own land on both the Moon and Mars. I suspect there will be high demand for people to visit both, and the first full time colonists will be the people who service the spaceports, hotels and moon and Mars golf courses.

The sooner one gets private enterprised involved, the soon things will get done. NASA is into science, but what most people want is the ability to go there themselves and to live there if they want.

	12-01-2004 15:35									#169
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At some point, we have to get rid of those "nobody goes without everybody's permission" treaties.

Yes, including the ones on the seafloor and Antarctica.

	12-01-2004 17:07									#170
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quote: Originally posted by Ned --- moon and Mars golf courses. ---

:LOL: Will a golf ball on moon hit hard enough enter orbit? And if it comes back down, you will probably have a very long walk to fetch it.

	12-01-2004 17:58									#171
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quote: Originally posted by Chemical Ollie :LOL: Will a golf ball on moon hit hard enough enter orbit? And if it comes back down, you will probably have a very long walk to fetch it.

I don't think it would enter orbit. If you hit it at anything less than lunar escape velocity (2.4 km/s, iirc) then it will enter a path that is not an orbit because it intersects the surface of the moon at some point. If you hit it faster than that, then it escapes entirely.

It should be possible to circumvent this by hitting it exactly horizontally from the top of a mountain, then kicking off the top of the mountain before the ball comes around and hits it.

	12-01-2004 18:46									#172
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quote: Originally posted by Ned What did I say? The left simply cannot address the merits of anything Bush proposes. Everything, absolutely everything, becomes a political issue.

Spoken like a true Hitler Youth. How old are you? Are you a college student? Do you have any idea what it is like to have financial responsibilities in this country? A mortgage, car payment, day care bills, retirement savings? And as if that is not enough to worry about, we have to also pick up the slack for the millions of people who could not get their **** together when they were capable of doing these things for themselves but are now too old and/or poor to do so. Space travel research money is better spent on easing these burdens for Americans.

Bush is counting on sexy Hollywood Star Trek excitement of a space travel program to lure young voters to get himself reelected. That is the only reason why he is spewing this crap. Congress will never give him the money he wants for this BS.

Grow up. Have some concern for your fellow man. We need to take care of ourselves and the indigent in our society before we think about walking on Mars. We need to focus on providing healthcare to all Americans and reforming the education system in America before we hand Bush's campaign contributors Space research contracts which they will execute by outsourcing to foreign countries for cheap labor.

	12-01-2004 18:53									#173
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a mission to mars and/or a permenant base on the moon will create a lot of new jobs...the moon thingie atleast. I would rather see people go to mars...but i think a permenant base on the moon would be much better for the world and well everything then one flight to mars.

	12-01-2004 19:03									#174
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I think we are all getting ahead of ourselves. All that money we spend on probes to Mars hardly tell us anything practical in a cost/benefit analysis. All that money would be much better spent in industrial proects such as materials and proplsion. It is like not wasting shields on Frigates because you know you can just use the resources ramp up science and get Ironclads sooner.

	12-01-2004 19:05									#175
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true....but it is also that if we go to mars and something goes wrong we cant push ctrl+L to load a save ....that is why the rovers are there (and for a lot of other reasons)

	12-01-2004 19:12									#176
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Would too much mining on the moon change the climate on earth? Like, affecting tides and pressure and whatnot?

	12-01-2004 20:16									#177
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what i don't get is the manned fly by of Mars. Go all that way just to snap some pics from orbit??? if something still needs to be learned (by just doing a flyby), do this at the moon. I can't believe we would send people all that way just to orbit and come back. A good part of the risk is just getting to Mars. If all that can be done is a fly by, don't bother sending people.

	12-01-2004 20:23									#178
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quote: Originally posted by The Emperor Fabulous Would too much mining on the moon change the climate on earth? Like, affecting tides and pressure and whatnot?

No.

...and as Krazyhorse and I were discussing in the other thread, the entire lack of an ecology to damage or pre-existing population to annoy means we can use manufacturing processes and conduct experiments no one would dare to do here.

	12-01-2004 22:17									#179
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten quote: You mean the Chinese would IMITATE what the Americans did when Sputnik and then Gagarin hit Space first? Revisionist! Sputnik and Gagarin were just communist propaganda.

Propadanda != false. You can have true propaganda too.

	12-01-2004 23:36									#180
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Hopefully Nasa won't accidentally nuke Mars like they nuked Jupiter