13-01-2004 16:58									#1
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We've beaten ND and GoW to Astronomy!

	13-01-2004 17:02									#2
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Vox, however, are now level with us. Does this mean they have traded PP to Lego, or have Lego sorted them out in advance?

	13-01-2004 17:16									#3
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With Bolderburg only 1 turn from a mkt, and ND lux coming in next turn we can drop the 10% lux, set some entertainers and see Chemistry in 7 turns, Banking in 5 and Navigation in 7.

What if we can trade Astro to ND or GoW for Chemistry? We need to get in touch before we play the turn.

	13-01-2004 17:25									#4
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Should we approach ND & GoW and say "Hey, we got Astro, when's yer Chemistry coming in?" - or waffle more generally about tech deals. No-one tells us what they've got, and I thought GoW hinted that they had Astro - hmmm. OTOH, if we're not direct then we'll never get the answer we need to decide what or whether to research this turn. Trading Astro for Chem would be cool - we could either snatch Banking or tread water and get cash for a couple of turns.

I think that Civs who aren't called Lego might do well to trade tech with each other at this point.

	13-01-2004 17:28									#5
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Rp won't be able to help out with research. Even at 100%, they get banking in 25 turns (or worse - 25 is the one science per turn pace), so they're not going to get Chemistry or Navigation any more quickly than that. Or to put it another way, they're not going to be able to research a single one of the three techs next in line before we can research b[]all three[/b] of them. So is there any point them doing research at the moment, as opposed to a) giving us gpt - only worth it if we can use the cash to run science 10% higher (or rush-build a significant number of universities / banks), or b) stockpiling cash while we research banking, and then they go for democracy at full tilt (or one of the optional techs) while we concentrate on polishing off the mandatory middle age techs.

	13-01-2004 17:28									#6
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no harm in trying to sell Astro around... certainly not if it goes against Lego.

DeepO

	13-01-2004 17:32									#7
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More news - Lego's 13 Knights are all stacked up now on two tiles. They're not GoW's sea wall this turn. Lego are still going bananas on the power graph, where Lego + Vox = GoW + ND.

Also, ND have Gems available. That'd be good for our WLTK.

	13-01-2004 17:42									#8
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Lego's 13 knights are only an annoyance to GoW-ND, they can easily be dismissed if needs to. And as they can't get here, I wouldn't bother about them.

ND having gems is good news, though!

I realised something else: Lego still doesn't have Astro, right? In that case, they only get a lux from us, as the others can't trade with them...

DeepO

	13-01-2004 17:44									#9
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Astro is 4 points lower than Chemistry = 96 beakers. If it's usual to split the difference then we'd pay 48 on top, if they want to be precise.

If GoW or ND can trade us Chemistry for Astro in a couple of turns we could stop research, rake some gold, then do Physics. If it's nearer to five turns for whichever of them to get Chemistry, we should maybe do Banking first.

	13-01-2004 17:45									#10
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Lego does have Astro, and so does Vox.

	13-01-2004 17:52									#11
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ah, pity... then their island is fully disclosed.

DeepO

	13-01-2004 17:57									#12
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sent to Darekill - same again for GoW?

quote: Hi Darekill, We now have Astronomy - would you be interested in a tech trade? Perhaps you are researching it yourselves, but if you're near to completing Chemistry, we would be very interested in a possible trade. We have the turn, so if you're up for trying to do a deal this turn (we don't want to start researching something if we can trade for it), please let us know. Many thanks, CH PS - we can do that lux deal this turn

	13-01-2004 18:21									#13
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Sure, why not...

DeepO

	13-01-2004 18:32									#14
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OK, similar PM sent to UnO cc MZ

	13-01-2004 20:13									#15
	Full PM-box? Change here!

I fwd'd the Darkill PM to Zayxus, and notice that UnO has seen the one to him. I'll be playing the turn after midnight GMT tonight, so there's time yet, but it is quite likely that we won't get a deal by then, even if we hear back - if so, we have to make a decision - Chemistry or Banking. I'm leaning towards Banking - it'll be another possibility to trade for Chem, and I don't think we want to wait 25 turns for RP to crawl there.

It would be good to get some initiatives coming in from other teams for a change - it seems to be down to us to make all the running {sigh}.

It's possible that ND and GoW have decided to wait for Marines, then destroy us & RP and claim a domination win. Though Lego would come riding to our aid rather than let the Bobians get domination.

	13-01-2004 20:14									#16
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Excellent.

Ok, given RP's research situation, it makes sense for them to provide us with gpt while we do the actual researching. They need to build marketplaces (and some temples, just to get those borders expanded) ASAP, to further augment that. I assume we're giving them our luxuries to help with happiness?

It will be interesting to see what ND/GoW do here. We are not the only possible supplier of Astro (Lego, Vox) and it's also possible that one of them could be researching it. So I wouldn't could on a Chemistry deal. If we do not get firm answers by the time we need to play the turn, I'd say press forward with chemistry research.

-Arrian

	13-01-2004 20:17									#17
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Heh, crosspost! So you wanna do banking.

Well, I guess it's against my nature to research something we're gonna get for free...even if it will take 25 turns. But having banking in 5 turns would be nice, so if we do go that way it's not a bad thing.

-Arrian

	13-01-2004 20:49									#18
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So much depends on at least the theoretical willingness of ND, or GoW, to trade tech with us. If they are, then we have a good chance of being able to trade for Chemistry - perhaps with Banking if Astro is devalued. If they don't want to trade with us, and we don't need Banks yet then we should go for Chemistry.

The attraction of Banking for free is a good point, but I think it depends on timing and the attitude of other civs. I think there are only 3 cities likely to be wanting to start on a bank soon, and old wonders and colosseums could serve as prebuilds - I'll check.

	13-01-2004 21:04									#19
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maybe better to wait for more information on the trades before playing the turn...

I agree with Arrian: if we can get it for free, there is little gain. It would be something different if we would have a shot at smith's, in that case I would go right ahead and risk it. If Lego times its GA perfectly (they can always do it by attacking a Vox warrior, of course), they're going to be very hard to beat.

Are we ready to start building banks right away? That could be a major selling point. But, as we'll be doing the research, while RP helps the econ, we need unis more then banks...

DeepO

	13-01-2004 21:07									#20
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Oracle, Great Lib and Hanging Gardens are available for prebuilding.

EotS : 17 spt
Uni next turn, then 2 turns for a Temple and 5 for a Cathedral leaves it ready to start a Bank in 8 turns. 160 shields for a Bank = 10 turns,. Total = 18 turns, 7 short of Banking from RP.

Tempest: 22 spt
Temple in 1, Cathdral in 4, ready to start Bank in 5 turns. Time to build bank = 8 turns. Total = 13 turns

Arashi : 17 spt
Uni in 8 turns, Cathedral in 5, Bank in 10, total = 23 turns.

Hurricane's building 'Pernies with a palace box.

So unless we build units, and/or prebuild for Newton (though Hurricane would be best for that, after Copernicus), or heavily MM to slow down shield accumulation by giving the tiles to other cities - it looks like we'll have three cities wanting to build Banks in 8-13 turns.

	13-01-2004 21:09									#21
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Those three above are the only cities as strong candidates for having nothing left to build but banks within 25 turns. The rest have loads to build - libs, mkts, unis.

	13-01-2004 21:26									#22
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The three Banks in question would yield around 40gpt extra between them - enough for another notch on the science slider.

If we researched banking now we could skip the cathedrals, and get banks in first to start reaping the gold earlier.

	13-01-2004 21:33									#23
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In fact - we could get Banking@4 turns with -16gpt and 66g in the kitty. edit : We'd need something from RP though - that figure is before entertainers / taxmen (though we only need them for one turn)

	13-01-2004 21:44									#24
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Well, honestly those cities could build the banks BEFORE the cathedrals if we had banking in time.

But nevermind that for a second. Assume for now that we are going to wait 25 turns for banking. In that case, we build the cathedrals, yeah.

EotS would be done in 8 turns, at which point it builds what?

Tempest is done in 5, at which point it builds what?

Arashi is done in 13, at which point it could build something small (2-3 turns) and start on a bank prebuild.

EotS is the most problematic, IMO. 17spt isn't really that good for a wonder prebuild now. As you note, there is a 7 (or 8, since RP plays after us, right?) turn window between when it would finish a bank prebuild and when we will get banking. So, what could we do for 7 turns? Well, we could build 2 knights (shortrush a cat after 1 turn, bringing up to 20 shields, then 37/54/71 - knight complete in 4 turns. Repeat) and either replace WC's on coastguard duty and disband the WCs or disband the knights in perimeter cities. Then start on the bank prebuild.

Tempest is such solid shield producer I'd say stick it on a Wonder prebuild in 5 turns. Newton is 400 shields? That's 19 turns in Tempest. Smith's (unlikely as all hell, I know) is 600 shields, IIRC - 28 turns. Hmm, almost no chance of Smith's, but a decent shot at Newton. And as far as I'm concerned, I'd rather get Newton in Tempest (not as good a site as Hurricane) than not at all. Then we pound out a bank, and start the ToE (or factory) prebuild.

-Arrian

	13-01-2004 21:48									#25
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Huge crosspost, sorry, I was working on that for a while.

Banking in 4... tempting.

Here is the key, to me: do we need those cathedrals? Perhaps it's best to push for banking, build the banks ASAP, and then build cathedrals afterwards. Or perhaps it's best to wait for banking and press ahead with cathedrals and wonder prebuilds and whatnot.

-Arrian

p.s. Can we get Arashi's university done faster with some shortrushing? What's the exact shield count?

	13-01-2004 21:51									#26
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Tempest is still okay for Newton, as it lays on a gold IIRC.

So... it looks like us going for banking first seems the best way. At least try to get us going for tech now faster, filling our treasury later on when we have banks in place.

But please try to get some tech trades first, even if we have little chance of actually securing them.

DeepO

	13-01-2004 21:54									#27
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Oh, and as what to build in EotS: that problem stays, of course... if we build banks first or last, at some moment it's going to run out of things to build. knights to disband in far-away cities or something to that extent can be done, although it is quite ineffective. Wealth isn't really worth a lot...

DeepO

	13-01-2004 22:20									#28
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Building the units and disbanding them is more efficient than wealth, AFAIK. I'd rather be building a useful improvement or wonder, of course, but that's not always an option.

Let's see if we can get responses out of ND and/or GoW.

If we do press ahead with banking, be sure to tell RP. They can completely shut down their research. Hell, even if it's just 1 scientist, they can put him back to work. Every little bit helps. Also, we do need to ask them to provide what GPT they can.

-Arrian

	13-01-2004 22:23									#29
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Arashi has accumulated 64 shields, and can in fact get 18 shields per turn.

	13-01-2004 22:37									#30
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Ok, so 64 out of 200?

8*17 = 136. 136+64 = 200. So, in other words, perfectly efficient. I assume getting 18spt requires some WF shuffling that may affect other cities and/or Arashi's food intake? Anyway, it doesn't seem like a candidate for short rushing.

-Arrian