15-01-2004 22:59									#151
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Hum, what is wrong with posing the question on the forum to see what everyone thinks? A simple, should we allow this tactic or not?

No position being given, just asking for a clarification. Saying we do not intend to participate, unless it is agree by the teams.

	15-01-2004 23:10									#152
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On the PP thing - I'll fire a quick note to Togas about the wisdom of confirming the NDA status. There may to be an empathic bond between RP and Vox now - which might turn outto be useful in some way.

	15-01-2004 23:25									#153
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On the RP GA trigger - a hypothetical team vote on the public forum which went by self-interest rather than game ethics (whatever they are) could see four votes to two in favour of allowing the tactic. Doesn't mean it's right - but it would be democratically mandated by the teams.

Thing is - ND and GoW would feel shafted, and we know what GoW are like when they go off on one.

Whatever the rights and wrongs, if both GS-RP and Lego-Vox do it, it'll be Lego that benefit the most with a GA timing of their choice. If I was Lego, triggering from Smith's or Magellans would be a little too early to be optimal. Better to get it at Factory-time, with the race for the killer industrial wonders that we ourselves seek.

	16-01-2004 01:35									#154
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quote: Originally posted by asleepathewheel pray that vox gets nationalism as their tech....

yes it's likely that vox will hold the key to ToE, anyone want to do something a bit silly and offer vox all MA techs for their one IA tech?

	16-01-2004 02:11									#155
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On the subject of Vox, I just had a PM from Togas on the subject of their independence.

Togas is reluctant to pay cash to Vox for PP if that cash goes to Lego, but they are keen to foster good relations with Vox, and will pay them if necessary - I don't know how much but we could do with that cash going elsewhere.

Sleepy, wanna check this NDA thing out with Rhoth? I suppose they'll say "oh yeah, there's an NDA", so they can get their full value, despite not saying it before, but as OPD says - the degree of their independence is worth knowing. I think Lego just gave them Gunpowder and Astro. Why Astro, on the very turn we discover it?

	16-01-2004 02:16									#156
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We've been kinda working on the assumption that Lego will pull Vox into the Ind. Era to get the freebie - and that Vox will not be able to disclose any of these.

I expect Lego policy is to hold back all techs from Vox until it's necessary. No point in depreciating tech costs for rivals - would run the argument.

	16-01-2004 02:21									#157
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CH I would say a vote would require either all or at least 5 out 6 to fly. I agree it should not be allowed if others feel it is unfair.
Too bad these things were not worked out inadvance.

	16-01-2004 02:36									#158
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by Cort Haus On the subject of Vox, I just had a PM from Togas on the subject of their independence. Togas is reluctant to pay cash to Vox for PP if that cash goes to Lego, but they are keen to foster good relations with Vox, and will pay them if necessary - I don't know how much but we could do with that cash going elsewhere. Sleepy, wanna check this NDA thing out with Rhoth? I suppose they'll say "oh yeah, there's an NDA", so they can get their full value, despite not saying it before, but as OPD says - the degree of their independence is worth knowing. I think Lego just gave them Gunpowder and Astro. Why Astro, on the very turn we discover it?

	16-01-2004 02:37									#159
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 CH I would say a vote would require either all or at least 5 out 6 to fly. I agree it should not be allowed if others feel it is unfair. Too bad these things were not worked out inadvance.

I think it's outlawed in the MZO C3CDG, which has an explicit list of prohibited exploits.

	16-01-2004 02:45									#160
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quote: Originally posted by Cort Haus We've been kinda working on the assumption that Lego will pull Vox into the Ind. Era to get the freebie - and that Vox will not be able to disclose any of these. I expect Lego policy is to hold back all techs from Vox until it's necessary. No point in depreciating tech costs for rivals - would run the argument.

seems like the case. very strategic of them. Though I imagine once they saw we traded Invention to vox, they put some measures into place to prevent it from happening again. Vox had some temporary autonomy, I don't expect to see it again, and certainly we won't get democracy out of them.

Does vox have chivalry yet? Not that its a useful tech....

	16-01-2004 02:53									#161
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deleted - wrong thread

	16-01-2004 02:57									#162
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Yes they've got Chivalry too, as if Lego decided to give them all the techs we've got. But how did they know we were getting Astro that turn?

	16-01-2004 04:38									#163
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erhmm... if Vox needs luxs, they need Astro as well, no? otherwise they are confined to only the one Lego can give them. That might be the reason. Other reason might be that Vox won't go for demo, but for nav.

invention to Vox: was there a NDA on that on? did we research it ourselves? I can't remember (that's something I've typed at least 5 times the past 2 days in this forum. I must be getting old )

DeepO

	16-01-2004 05:08									#164
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Yeah, we researched Invention ourselves, and Vox were the last to get it, so no NDA needed.

	16-01-2004 05:34									#165
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just posted a response from Vox. They ask for a few turns to work out a deal. I think we should just tell them that we won't do anything with printing press for 10 turns (the max what they asked, I believe) because....


they want to trade their next tech, democracy to us.

A shocking development. One would think Lego would bar them from trading that to us, a religous civ.

cool eh? I haven't responded, want input on whether to give him the short nda. I think we should, because we don't want to hurt our thawing relations, esp. if they are good trade partners...

	16-01-2004 05:42									#166
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I'd say we give the 10 NDA, as a sign of good will... and immediately make a trade on one of the Medeival techs for demo. If they get it from us, they won't be so quick to get it from Lego, meaning Lego won't benefit from their free ind tech quickly... the more delay, the better.

Which tech to offer them is something else, better ask what they need then offer one ourselves. We're likely to be able to offer quite a few in 40 turns time. This migth gives us an idea what others are going for, if Vox knows.

DeepO

	16-01-2004 05:46									#167
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yeah, I was thinking of just asking what they needed, wanted. do we have spare luxes? I know they have none on voxtavia, I've spoken to them before about it.

I hope they want luxes and techs. Gold that might go to lego.....and gold that we need to sustain our big push....

	16-01-2004 06:10									#168
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We have a Furs available for every team on the planet - there's currently one left in the cupboard for Vox

RP now have their own Incense plus one from us - maybe they can pay Vox with theirs, rather than gold. There are six on Stormia including RP's, so there's enough to go round. No-one except GS and RP has Incense atm.

If they're talking research deals including democracy, they're gonna be given banking too. Shame they'll get it from Lego the same turn as us. Any sooner and we'd get some cash-back from our last turn of research.

Funny how Lego lets them trade though. It does rather make one wonder about whether we could cut an IA freebie deal with them now.

	16-01-2004 06:14									#169
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I'm going to go ahead and let them have taht 10 turn cushion, hopefully RP won't get hosed.

And I will ask them what they would want for dem, mentioning that we have furs.

	16-01-2004 06:20									#170
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Vox-PP NDA:

I think we should respect their wishes, and accept the NDA then go to RP and suggest they offer to pay with incense instead of cash. If Vox insist on cash then RP can wait for the NDA to expire and get it from us.

This would mean we couldn't sell our incense to Vox though. Perhaps it doesn't matter if we can pay tech for Democracy instead. In fact it doesn't matter if RP have PP yet, as we can deal with Vox to get Demo and RP can research Navigation.

	16-01-2004 06:31									#171
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message sent to vox.

I wonder if they are selling the same wares to all 4 civs, then giving the profits to lego?
Luckily for us, the market for Democracy will be very low, as GoW would be damn fools to want it.

	16-01-2004 06:47									#172
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Good stuff, sleepy.

I sent a message to Togas saying that they might want to wait for PP from us when the NDA expires, but if they did want to do business with Vox they could try using that Incense. RP will probably agree - Togas said they'd much prefer not to pay gold to Lego.

In fact, RP were only trying to trade for it so we could have it - and on the grounds that Vox would charge them less, so to RP for thinking of that.

	16-01-2004 14:10									#173
	Increase Your PM Length

RP have played their turn. Togas says they're
sending us 20gpt , leaving themselves with 10gpt, and they'll be building mkts.

	16-01-2004 15:06									#174
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

okay, a few things on RP:

1. mention the cultural pressure of SB, please. We have enough units for a complete sea wall (maybe best to tell that to them as well), so no need to risk anything

2. ask them if they would focus on markets and banks, instead on units. We need that cash asap. Units can be build when we get closer to marines, for the moment they don't need them.

3. maybe we need some more discussion on this, but if possible I would like RP to go for Magellan. But, they will need to start prebuilding now. It has the added advantage of being part of their GA trigger, but most importantly it will make it easier for the both of us to defend against marines.

4. 20 gpt is nice... but we'll probably are going to require more if we expect a decent shot at ToE. Better to get them used to being our cash suppliers. 50 gpt in 20 turns is not far fetched.

DeepO

	16-01-2004 16:28									#175
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SB?

Wouldn't it be risky to have magellans so close to GoW?

	16-01-2004 16:48									#176
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Sorry, Deepo - I've seen your other post. SB = Santa Barbara. Port Isolation has no culture either.

	16-01-2004 18:14									#177
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Oh, I thought it was the one closest to Port Isolation... the more pressure, the better. If GoW would lose a city, all we can do is smile and let them buy it back.

But where it is build doesn't concern me much, as long as it doesn't get build by someone who can invade us with marines...

DeepO