15-01-2004 05:40									#121
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If we don't have Newton's in Tempest we'll have a bank there, which will give us more research too, and there's time to decide, because we were going for a bank via cathedral prebuild there anyway.

	15-01-2004 06:18									#122
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If RR adds 1 shield to each tile producing a shield, EotS could get (mining the irrigated plan and getting extra food from floodplains) another 10 shields, for 27 shields.

Without democracy it's 3 turns for industrial workers to do an RR so we could do almost all of it in one turn with 30 workers. That's 23 turns for the ToE and 30 turns for the Hoover. Above I estimated 23 turns from Steam to Sci Meth.

Tempest gets its shields from hills and mountains, and food from floodplain. If the two plains were mined it could gain another 9 shields for 30spt. RR-ing that lot would take 30 workers about 2 turns, and the result could build the Hoover Dam in 27 turns.

Allowing 4 turns from Steam to get the 2 cities fully RR'd (including Tempest's mountain for a turn off the Hoov) would see Tempest getting 19 turns at 30spt = 570s before ToE. So starting 5 or 6 turns before Steam would take it to around 700 when ToE is discovered.

Very nice, except as Deepo said, we only have one Palace to use for a prebuild. I always use Uni Suff in SP, but this plan doesn't include Industrialisation - perhaps it should.

	15-01-2004 06:28									#123
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If we get Industrialisation and have factory prebuilds going, and maybe finished off with cash from RP's hopefully booming economy... and maybe coal plants ... that changes things, and of course this is all dependent on getting coal, assuming no tech trades, and assuming that a Lego GA hasn't romped home to the Hoov.

	15-01-2004 08:07									#124
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Originally posted by Tall Stranger

"Makes sense, sort of. If there's going to be a(nother) Bobian war, that would be the time to do it. I just think it would be a horrifying mistake on their part."

It may be the lesser of all the evils for both of them. It will be so hard to invade and to get a real shot they will need their whole contient.
If either joins Lego, they have to worry about Lego cutting them out of the new land (ours) if they get any. Even if they don't Lego stays ahead of them. All three of us have the same problem. We need more land without anyone else getting more. Lego does not have that problem. They can afford to get more land along with someone else.



"That part worries me the most, actually. If I'm GoW and planning to take down Lego, I'd be working pretty damn hard to get those Lego troops withdrawn."
[/QUOTE]

Why is that? I could see letting them sit there until you are ready to strike. Why let them have 15 more knights on the home soil to deal with. They are easy to deal with by the reserves. You wait till RR are up and pop them with arties and take them down no fuss no muss. Plus if they were home, they would be calvs soon.

	15-01-2004 15:07									#125
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quote: Cort Haus, If you guys haven't purchased Printing Press from Vox, let us purchase it and give it to you. We can easily buy it at a cheaper price than you could given our "pity factor" We'd like to be able to contribute some tech to the alliance. We're happy to help fund GS research by giving up gpt. 10-20gpt may not be out of the question. --Togas

	15-01-2004 15:25									#126
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whow... another mistake coming from not haven played this game for so long... maybe I should start a session to get back in the hang of it

So, Demo only affects corruption of commerce? Forget it then. Our corruption isn't too bad with our close core and both Palace and FP.

RR doesn't add a shield where one is present, it adds a shield were a mine is present. That's a big difference: irrigated plains gets a + 1 food, not +1 shield. But, in Hurricane for example (where there is a lot of irr plains, IIRC) it only has an effect on the time needed for improvements, not shield output: for every irrigated plains that gets RRed, another irr plains can become a RRed mined plains. so, add 2 extra shields for 2 tiles. In general, every stable size 12 city gets 12 extra spt. (sometimes 11 spt + 1 fpt) The only exceptions are when there are only floodplains available, and not enough plains to turn into mined ones. I'm not sure if this is what applies to Tempest.

And don't get me wrong: we can try for both science wonders and Hurricane would be super to get one, but for the moment I would take 1 wonder into our estimates, not 2.

DeepO

	15-01-2004 15:40									#127
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With 5 size 10-12 cities, RP should be looking at 55--65 tiles being worked, all producing at least 2 raw trade per turn. They have 34 coastal tiles, although only 18 are within range of current cities. Resources appear to give them another 6 per turn AFAICS (they have 2 incense don't they?) That gives them 135-155 raw trade, which becomes 270-310 with universities amd banks. Call it 300 as a close estimate. At 80% science they get 60 gpt and 240 scpt. So roughly speaking, in the industrial era they could research medicine in 10 turns, while we research steam power in 8 (using Cort Haus's numbers). That means we don't have to spend 7 turns there, so that cuts 7 turns off our time to ToE. Which argues for starting the ToE prebuild either as we start out last medieval tech, or even the tech before that.

This doesn't need exact co-ordination. It takes them 10 turns, but they only have to finish it before we finish electricity. This gives them a 5 turn window from us reaching the induistrial era to them having to start on medicine. After medicine it might be worth them going for industrialisation to give us the Suffrage as a fallback wonder.

Since we expect to hit the Industrial era in no more than 29 turns, barring siasters of one sort or another, having them do democracy at 40 turn pace would be a mistake - starting in 4 turns, they finish it 15 turns into the industrial era, and so only can't contribute to the ToE beeline at all. We want them to start on medicine in 30-35 turns time to give us the best benefit. That means they have to be able to do democracy in 25 turns or les, whilst also building (rushing?) banks and universities to be ready for the medicine research. If they can do that, fine. If not they might do better researching an optional tech, using the money to rush the unis and banks they need (since they need to do libraries as well, not to mention some happiness stuff like temples and cathedrals.

So their highest priority, IMHO, should be making sure they are ready with universities when we hit the industrial era, with cities of at least size 10 with no happiness problems. They should develop a plan for getting these in time with the necessary builds and rushes, and then see how much research they can squeeze out of what is left. If they can get democracy or one of the other optional wonder techs (or military tradition - might be useful as trade bait with Lego if there is a war brewing) in 25 turns or less after finishing banking, then go for it. Otherwise turn of research and prepare to go for medicine when we need it.

	15-01-2004 16:28									#128
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I doubt RP can get near 300 trade per turn by early industrial if they're feeding us gpt to keep our research at the levels I projected. They'd need to rush a lot of libs, mkts, banks, uni's and cathedrals (they'd only have two lux). Without their gpt, we probably won't manage that timetable for ToE.

If, however, the turns lost by slowing down our own research was made up by us not researching medicine, it would obviously pay back longer term if RP were cranking 300scpt. OTOH, as their economy grows, they may be able to keep us with what we GPT need for our research goals, while maintaining a larger surplus to develop mkts, caths, banks first, then libs and unis. Perhaps this way they could plan for 300scpt later on in the era.

	15-01-2004 17:20									#129
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Does anyone feel like putting in the time to estimate our growth and development over the next 40 turns and seeing how our research progresses without the benefit of any RP cash? Then we have to get an estimate from RP of what their science output would be when we reach the industrial era, and see how long researching medicine would take (they can do it in 15 turns if necessary, needing only 160 scpt, which might be more-doable). If we lose 7 turns or more by extending our own research times it isn't worth it.

I guess we need to get some idea of what they think their output could be in 20 turns times. If its going to be nowhere near the minimum 160 scpt we need, then the current plan of them funding our research would work better, while they go for democracy.

	15-01-2004 17:28									#130
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it doesn't really matter what the exact numbers are going to be, as long as we can't run at 100% science, or at 4 turns research on our own. And it doesn't like that

The thing that needs to be done is that Estonia has to be build up, and they only have a limited amount of shields available. Whether they build libs and unis and research themselves, or build markets and banks and pay us to research faster, it will lead to exactly the same result... with one difference being that gold is more flexible then beakers (as you can stash it in a treasury and run deficits).

So... in stead of them building unis, they should go for banks, and give everything they have to us so we can speed up research. Only later on, when they run out of things to build, can they switch, but that won't be more efficient as long as we don't run on 4-turn research on our own, or have our slider at 100%... they need to pay upkeep on those science buildings too. So, let them focus on gold, and whenever possible get a 40-turn research in.

DeepO

	15-01-2004 17:42									#131
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...and if i was thinking clearly, I'm sure I would have realised that on my own sooner or later.

The other time it might help is if they have more science improvements than cash improvements and have more science improvements than us (or something like that). But that isn't going to happen.

Okay, best stick with the 'us researching, them funding us and doing 40 turn reseach' route then.

	15-01-2004 18:17									#132
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quote: Originally posted by Cort Haus (copy in log) quote: Cort Haus, If you guys haven't purchased Printing Press from Vox, let us purchase it and give it to you. We can easily buy it at a cheaper price than you could given our "pity factor" We'd like to be able to contribute some tech to the alliance. We're happy to help fund GS research by giving up gpt. 10-20gpt may not be out of the question. --Togas

Damn, and here I thought i was all smooth working that deal out with Vox.

And vox has played us. or RP. Its not like invention is worth anything these days, lego would have to give it to them anyway fairly soon to get them out of the ancient era.

	15-01-2004 18:22									#133
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Looking ahead to our vunerability-zone circa Marines, RP could have developed enough by then for them to go for Flight while we go for tanks.

Another thing - we might consider researching Radio for two defensive bonuses. That'll give their Marines something to think about.

	15-01-2004 18:23									#134
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Holy Schnikeys

what about RP's GOLDEN AGE? Have them research Navigation on 40 turns, then maybe they could get is and burst for industrialization or medicine.

Maybe we could hire GoW to let RP trigger their GA against them. I wouldn't feel right about us starting a faux war.

I haven't read what exactly RP is trying to get out of GoW, but perhaps they can abandon everything except for, say, Gow landing a warrior on n. Stormia to be used eventually by RP to trigger their GA.

Thoughts? I know its a cheesy trick, but....

	15-01-2004 18:31									#135
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actually, that might be all RP needs for peace: one warrior to start their GA on. They don't really have a good chance of triggering a peaceful GA.

Oh, and yes, it wouldn't be good for us to trigger their GA, but as I'm sure Lego will let Vox do the same I don't mind that much

DeepO

	15-01-2004 18:49									#136
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Why let GoW land at all. Get the contract, and RP can land one or two Conquistadors on Bob, kill a lone warrior, and then remove themselves. Not sure GoW would be amenable to the idea, but ND might to make friends, GoW might if they fear being swamped by ND to get friends, Lego (or Vox) might do it to help us remain a threat to ND / GoW to indirectly protect Lego from invasion.

Good thinking Sleepy. They research Nav while buildng infrastructure and funding our research, and then have enough output to get 2, maybe 3 techs from their golden age.

	15-01-2004 18:55									#137
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I have grave doubts about this unless we had support from other civs, or we knew that Lego would do this anyway (they would if RP did).

If they did do it, we could supply the warrior ourselves.

	15-01-2004 18:59									#138
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 It may be the lesser of all the evils for both of them. It will be so hard to invade and to get a real shot they will need their whole contient.

The difficulty of invading Lego will only get worse. All the more reason for them to work together now, when they can pool their resources, to take down what they must know to be the greatest threat.

Again, I'm not saying they WON'T go to war with one another. (In fact, I think we need to think through how we should react to another Bobian war.) I'm just saying that it would be a foolish decision on their part. Sadly, humans can often times make decisions one would normally only expect from an AI.

quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 quote: Originally posted by Tall Stranger That part worries me the most, actually. If I'm GoW and planning to take down Lego, I'd be working pretty damn hard to get those Lego troops withdrawn. Why is that? I could see letting them sit there until you are ready to strike. Why let them have 15 more knights on the home soil to deal with. They are easy to deal with by the reserves. You wait till RR are up and pop them with arties and take them down no fuss no muss. Plus if they were home, they would be calvs soon.

Good point. My thinking was that you wouldn't want those guys seeing you move troops around and (possibly) giving them advance warning that you're about to attack. I'm not sure where the Lego knights are now, though, so it could be that GoW is able to mask their preparations. But you're right that, if I'm GoW, I'd rather take them out the first day of the war on Bob than have them back in Lego, upgraded.

I still think, though, that ND and GoW waiting until RR would be another big mistake. If they have the forces to take down Lego, they need to do it before RR. (Big If, I know.)

	15-01-2004 19:12									#139
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we have an estimated 29 turns until the next era. We could see how much it would take for rp to get nav in 30 turns. I think if we slowed our research in this age by two turns, we might save 5 on the race for sci method.

	15-01-2004 19:13									#140
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TS, right now Lego's 13 visible knights are in 2 stacks otside GoW's cultural borders.

As far as our responses go - if we commit to their Hoover Dam gambit that we're planning we won't be wanting war any time before that's due. Ironically, an opening could emerge, but with our sea-wall secure, we've decided to turn over much of our fleet into new shields for our economic ramp-up and save gold. We see the future military as Inf, Arty and a few 'old' Guerrillas, and without Saltpeter our current fast-movers are almost obsolete.

Just a thought. What if we opened the Save and had a new source of SP, and GoW had lost theirs.

	15-01-2004 19:16									#141
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along the nav lines, it would also net us magellan's as a prebuild possibility for a coastal city

	15-01-2004 19:27									#142
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Navigation is cost 54, thats 1344 beakers. Divide by 30 is 45.

So, RP need 45 scpt to get Nav in 30 turns. I can't seeing them getting that and being able to pay us.

	15-01-2004 19:31									#143
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quote: Originally posted by Cort Haus Navigation is cost 54, thats 1344 beakers. Divide by 30 is 45. So, RP need 45 scpt to get Nav in 30 turns. I can't seeing them getting that and being able to pay us.

.

no, they certainly don't have the infra at this point to make that kind of run.



oh well. nonetheless, they could get nav in 40 turns and help us out on a couple industrial techs. we might need nationalism and some other optional techs...

	15-01-2004 22:38									#144
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CH

Maybe RP should go ahead and trade for PP from Vox. I would rather not see any hard feelings about this, we've been the recipient before and it wasn't pleasant. As long as what RP gives them isn't valuable-chivalry or even gunpowder, it won't be bad. Vox will eventually be given gunpowder by lego, anyway,if they want their free tech.

each of us trade with vox for the same thing, they make a nice tech profit, but nothing that will influence the outcome of the game at all, vox is happy, might come in handy some day.

	15-01-2004 22:41									#145
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Regarding RP's GA:

I don't think I'd feel comfortable with triggering it via a sacrificial warrior, unless it was clear that other teams were ok with, and planning on using the same tactic. We've already engaged in tactics I'm uncomfortable with (unit teleportation - though I was all for it with the Voxodus when I thought of it as harmless). I'd rather not continue down that road unless I'm sure it won't result in cries of "GS and RP cheated!"

I think we might need Trip, the all-seeing EYE, to provide us with some perspective on this matter (as to whether or not other teams have discussed this tactic and if so, whether or not they have decided it's ok).

I suppose we could bring it up on the public forum, but frankly I'd prefer a quiet word from Trip first. It may well be that the other teams are vehemently opposed to this sort of thing, and so posting about it in the public forum would trigger all sorts of anti-GS posts, which I think we all want to avoid.

-Arrian

	15-01-2004 22:45									#146
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Re: Printing Press.

I'd say let's double-check for any mention of NDA. Let's take the extra step of contacting Vox about it. Something like this:

"We checked our diplo logs from our Invention - PP deal, and do not see any mention of a NDA. We wanted to clarify this issue with you, not only for this deal, but also deals in the future."

If we do something they see as screwing them, then we might find ourselves cut off in the future. Granted, we might find that anyway, if Lego orders them to stop trading with us (dunno if they would do that. More likely they would order Vox to take their time trading with us, ensuring that Lego stays ahead).

-Arrian

	15-01-2004 22:48									#147
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Am I wrong in thinking that in the Voxodus contract Lego signed, it was explicitely asked that in case of emergency, Vox was to provide a warrior to Lego for their GA? I remember something like this, but am not sure...

And let's keep it from the public, yes. As trip is supposed to be an observer and no judge, getting word from him is also not really perfect. But in case we need it, we can let RP ask Vox...

DeepO

	15-01-2004 22:49									#148
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian Regarding RP's GA: I don't think I'd feel comfortable with triggering it via a sacrificial warrior, unless it was clear that other teams were ok with, and planning on using the same tactic. We've already engaged in tactics I'm uncomfortable with (unit teleportation - though I was all for it with the Voxodus when I thought of it as harmless). I'd rather not continue down that road unless I'm sure it won't result in cries of "GS and RP cheated!" I think we might need Trip, the all-seeing EYE, to provide us with some perspective on this matter (as to whether or not other teams have discussed this tactic and if so, whether or not they have decided it's ok). I suppose we could bring it up on the public forum, but frankly I'd prefer a quiet word from Trip first. It may well be that the other teams are vehemently opposed to this sort of thing, and so posting about it in the public forum would trigger all sorts of anti-GS posts, which I think we all want to avoid. -Arrian

Which is why it might be better to at least explore the sacrifice of a GoW warrior in exchange for peace with RP. Granted, that's a 40 year commitment, and lots can change, but it would be a lot cleaner. And, they are mercs.

	15-01-2004 22:53									#149
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As to RP getting a GA from a combat, are you saying that they have not used their UU in a winning combat to this point?

	15-01-2004 22:55									#150
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 As to RP getting a GA from a combat, are you saying that they have not used their UU in a winning combat to this point?

nope, they are spain and don't have navigation yet.