 |
| |
|
| |
|
|
chegitz guevara
|
 |
Ft. Lauderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Jun 2000
time: 00:33
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Saras
Not you  |
Wrong, I, and nearly three hundred million other Americans grant you the right to live, should you ever come to America, or should someone in America be trying to kill you. We will do our best to ensure that you are not killed here or by someone who is here. This is becaquse we feel that a society where people do not have to fear being killed is perferalbe to one where that is a constant worry. Nearly every society on Earth has prohibitions no murder for this very reason.
quote:
btw, I was wrong regarding ZIL's - I had in mind ZIM's. But zils were 5 ton, 35 liters of gas per 100 km monsters WITHOUT any bhp and torque, hardly "some of the best cars". |
You're using a different measure than I was. ZILs are beautiful cars, well manufactured, and quite luxurious. Rolls Royces and such Western luxury vehicals are large and gas wasting, but I wouldn't say they are bad cars (except from an environmental stand point).
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Saras
|
 |
Vilnius, Lithuania
Apr 1999
time: 06:33
|
|
--"You're using a different measure than I was. ZILs are beautiful cars, well manufactured, and quite luxurious. Rolls Royces and such Western luxury vehicals are large and gas wasting, but I wouldn't say they are bad cars (except from an environmental stand point)."
Would you buy a Rolls if you could afford one, or rather some racier stuff?
--"Wrong, I, and nearly three hundred million other Americans grant you the right to live, should you ever come to America, or should someone in America be trying to kill you. We will do our best to ensure that you are not killed here or by someone who is here. This is becaquse we feel that a society where people do not have to fear being killed is perferalbe to one where that is a constant worry. Nearly every society on Earth has prohibitions no murder for this very reason."
It's not a right then, it's a licence.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Ogie Oglethorpe
|
 |
Marietta, GA
Dec 1999
time: 05:33
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Actually I don't. I fully recognize that moral structures are human creations. The fact that a set of human relations is in existence doesn't presuppose it's naturalness. Slavery existed for a very long time, an people argued it was just, and natural, and moral. Today we see those arguments as FoS. Equally, the right to property in land, capital, etc., is no more no more natural than the right to property in humans.
BTW, the DoI has no legal standing in the USA. The rights enshrined in that document have no legal valdity. The rights to life, liberty, and property, however, we assured in the 14th Amendment, and you may not be deprived of them except by due process of law. In other words, the government does not recognize them as absolute, nor do the citizens. We may take away your rights to life, liberty, and property in order to maximize the public good. |
And what are laws other than a codification of those morals. Are morals changeable, without doubt, are laws as well, no doubt. Given that morals are mutable then one must argue with the latest agreed upon set of moral standards are those codified in law (until the next change thereof). Hence the reason we speak of issues of law and not of morals.
DoI is considered to be the underpinning of the constitution wherein the legal power of government is outlined. (Duh) Likewise, DoI has been used to frame arguements in courts and thereby has legal relevance.
Agreed the 14th ammendment states these rights exist except as noted. The mere fact that they have been mentioned gives them credence and validity and are not to be infringed upon lightly.The paraphrasing you used to describe the limitation of these rights is not 100% correct unless of course you recognize the fact that preservation of these same rights is in the greater public good  .
I'll grant you Emminent Domain is one particularly nasty portion that speaks towards seizure of property for the greater good. (Unfortunately as a Libertarian I see huge huge abuses of this clause).
|
|
| |
|
| |
|
|
|
Pax
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe
GePap
Two simple statements
1) Because as citizens we have no right to choose productions.
2) That is reserved for the property owners.
Any reason to think either of these two statements are not factual with respect to current US law. |
Man-made fabrics vs hemp is a prime example of
1. The government stepping in to help a particular company gain control of a market by making a product illegal.
2. disregard of consumer demand on the part of the government and business.
The recent arguments over ephedra is another example of the consumer not being able to get what they want. Apparently ephedra is more harmful than cigarettes, alcohol, and tylenol.
On another note, Ned
I identify with the victims because I am an African American member of the military who has been to slums in NYC, Atlanta, Norfolk, Chattanooga, San Diego, Tijuana, San Juan, USVI, New London, Boston, Charleston, Bermuda, San Diego, UK, Holland, and etc. I have seen all manner of ills that a lot of people don't know exist. This poverty is not limited to the cities.
A lot of Americans(U.S.) say that the U.S.A. is the best place to live on Earth and that other countries and people are jealous of us. I am inclined to agree with this statement. Would you not I agree that if the reason that countries like the U.S.A., U.K, and France are so rich comes from slave labor, forcing other countries to buy harmful drugs from them, supporting dictators, controlling other countries resources, would'nt you agree that all these things invite bitterness and repercussions. If you found that the reason you were poor and your wife starving was because someone has stolen and continues to hold something that is rightfully yours what would you do?
In a play by George Bernard Shaw, one of the characters stated that all Great Britain had to do stay the most powerful country is maintain the status quo. My point is that the status quo as it stands is not a fair one and I see communism, socialism, fascism, even racism as and attempt to balance this. As it is Democratic Capitalist market society does not work, Neither does communism, fascism, or socialism. All for the same reasons. They don't look out for the citizens.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Ogie Oglethorpe
|
|
Marietta, GA
Dec 1999
time: 05:33
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Pax Africanus
Man-made fabrics vs hemp is a prime example of
1. The government stepping in to help a particular company gain control of a market by making a product illegal.
2. disregard of consumer demand on the part of the government and business.
The recent arguments over ephedra is another example of the consumer not being able to get what they want. Apparently ephedra is more harmful than cigarettes, alcohol, and tylenol.
On another note, Ned
I identify with the victims because I am an African American member of the military who has been to slums in NYC, Atlanta, Norfolk, Chattanooga, San Diego, Tijuana, San Juan, USVI, New London, Boston, Charleston, Bermuda, San Diego, UK, Holland, and etc. I have seen all manner of ills that a lot of people don't know exist. This poverty is not limited to the cities.
A lot of Americans(U.S.) say that the U.S.A. is the best place to live on Earth and that other countries and people are jealous of us. I am inclined to agree with this statement. Would you not I agree that if the reason that countries like the U.S.A., U.K, and France are so rich comes from slave labor, forcing other countries to buy harmful drugs from them, supporting dictators, controlling other countries resources, would'nt you agree that all these things invite bitterness and repercussions. If you found that the reason you were poor and your wife starving was because someone has stolen and continues to hold something that is rightfully yours what would you do?
In a play by George Bernard Shaw, one of the characters stated that all Great Britain had to do stay the most powerful country is maintain the status quo. My point is that the status quo as it stands is not a fair one and I see communism, socialism, fascism, even racism as and attempt to balance this. As it is Democratic Capitalist market society does not work, Neither does communism, fascism, or socialism. All for the same reasons. They don't look out for the citizens. |
A good post, Pax.
One small thing I would like to point out tho'. I was not argueing in that 2nd particular passage that consumer demand chose productions. More to the point consumer demand incents property owners (owners of means of production). They then choose the productions. And yes I will allow that government does have the ability to infringe on this right.
Your last 3 sentences are compelling. And in each situation the resounding claim from each of the above will be the same. "That's not true _________ at work." or "There never has been a true form of _____________."
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Ned
|
 |
of Aptos, CA
Oct 1999
time: 21:33
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by chegitz guevara
The rights to life, liberty, and property, however, we assured in the 14th Amendment, and you may not be deprived of them except by due process of law. In other words, the government does not recognize them as absolute, nor do the citizens. We may take away your rights to life, liberty, and property in order to maximize the public good. |
Not true, Che. There is a doctrine called "substantive due process" whereby statutes which unreasonably deny one of these basic rights are rendered unconstitutional.
Think of abortion.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Ned
|
|
of Aptos, CA
Oct 1999
time: 21:33
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Pax Africanus
On another note, Ned
I identify with the victims because I am an African American member of the military who has been to slums in NYC, Atlanta, Norfolk, Chattanooga, San Diego, Tijuana, San Juan, USVI, New London, Boston, Charleston, Bermuda, San Diego, UK, Holland, and etc. I have seen all manner of ills that a lot of people don't know exist. This poverty is not limited to the cities.
A lot of Americans(U.S.) say that the U.S.A. is the best place to live on Earth and that other countries and people are jealous of us. I am inclined to agree with this statement. Would you not I agree that if the reason that countries like the U.S.A., U.K, and France are so rich comes from slave labor, forcing other countries to buy harmful drugs from them, supporting dictators, controlling other countries resources, would'nt you agree that all these things invite bitterness and repercussions. If you found that the reason you were poor and your wife starving was because someone has stolen and continues to hold something that is rightfully yours what would you do?
In a play by George Bernard Shaw, one of the characters stated that all Great Britain had to do stay the most powerful country is maintain the status quo. My point is that the status quo as it stands is not a fair one and I see communism, socialism, fascism, even racism as and attempt to balance this. As it is Democratic Capitalist market society does not work, Neither does communism, fascism, or socialism. All for the same reasons. They don't look out for the citizens. |
Pax, you didn't have to say that you were of African descent. It was quite obvious.
There is no doubt that blacks in the United States were kept "in their place" until that last few decades by systems of laws and discrimination that cumulatively were and are quite devestating. This, though, has nothing to do with our form of goverment. It has a lot to do with the legacy of the Civil War and Reconstruction, and by pure partisan politics where one party or the other over time has sought the allegiance of the blacks but have done nothing serious to remedy the basic issues.
Truman was the one who lead the fight to desegregate the military. The Supreme Court gave us Brown v. Board of Education. Eisenhower used the military to enforce that decision. Johnson, Senator Humphrey (Democrat) and Senator Dirksen (Republican) formed a coalition to pass the Civil Rights Act of 1964. And Richard Nixon gave us Affirmative Action with goals and timetables (quotas).
And of course, we should not forget Martin Luther King.
But the process of ending Slavery and bringing equality to the African Americans has been long and tortuous, met at every juncture with resistance.
I fully understand and support Affirmative Action. There are many Republicans like me.
|
|
| |
All times are GMT. The time now is 05:33.
Apolyton Time is 00:33. |
top of page
|
| archivepost |
|
Forum Rules:
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
|
HTML code is ON
vB code is ON
Smilies are ON
[IMG] code is ON
|
|
|
|
|
|
21-01-2004 23:52
|