20-01-2004 23:52									#361
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No I speak clearly to the heart of the matter. You choose to make decisions that are in the 'best' interest of the individual whether the individual wants them or not. Same old failings.

	20-01-2004 23:55									#362
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And another thing. This isn't solely a leftist issue. I have heard more than one Libertarian economist complain about the effect that subsidizing suburbs and roads has had on the efficiency of the economy and on pollution.

	20-01-2004 23:59									#363
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So now your in favor of no government wrt roads and road networks. What kind of commie are you?

I suppose you'ld prefer those privatized ehhh?
Worked so well with the railroads afterall.

	21-01-2004 00:00									#364
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quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe No I speak clearly to the heart of the matter. You choose to make decisions that are in the 'best' interest of the individual whether the individual wants them or not. Same old failings.

Just because the individual is able to make decisions for himself does not mean that he recieves the maximum benefit from those decisions. You ignore the benefits of living in a society. Individuals must make decisions as a society to recieve maximum benefit.

	21-01-2004 00:02									#365
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Complete bull.

	21-01-2004 00:03									#366
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quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe Complete bull.

Oh, you need another lesson. I can't be arsed into giving you one though.

	21-01-2004 00:06									#367
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quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe So now your in favor of no government wrt roads and road networks. What kind of commie are you? I suppose you'ld prefer those privatized ehhh? Worked so well with the railroads afterall.

The point isn't about this particular case, over which there is venomous dispute on both sides, but on the economic and environmental impact of the automobile and the role of special interests in its rise to dominance.

Suburbs are expensive and historically subsidized. I have no problem with subsidies if they promote efficiency (which is supposed to be their point), but this sort of thing smacks of pork barrel politics.

I don't drive a car. I don't need to, since I live downtown near public transportation - I would pay less for a whole year's subway passes than I would for just the insurance on a car. The subway pollutes a whole lot less than cars too.

Cars should be the sort of thing you hire only when you need them or buy when you live in the country. There's no place for them in cities. And suburbs are an inefficient way of living. After all people complain about cigarette smoke, but auto pollution is pretty bad too.

	21-01-2004 00:14									#368
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Oh, you need another lesson. I can't be arsed into giving you one though.

Funny arse was the exact word that sprang to my mind as well.

	21-01-2004 00:18									#369
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Just because the individual is able to make decisions for himself does not mean that he recieves the maximum benefit from those decisions. You ignore the benefits of living in a society. Individuals must make decisions as a society to recieve maximum benefit.

Kid is right Ogie. All respectable economists agree on this. It's a fact that people acting in their own self interest can in many circumstances make everyone worse off. Look up "collective action problems" and "perverse outcomes".

	21-01-2004 00:22									#370
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e.g

http://faculty.washington.edu/wtalb...il102/hdcap.htm

http://economics.about.com/cs/macro...c_of_action.htm

You'll see that this explains a lot of what goes wrong in society.

Last edited by Agathon on 21-01-2004 at 00:28

	21-01-2004 00:23									#371
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The collective opinions of individuals is the proper course.

We're not talking a singular individual. We're talking the composite of an entire market. Kinna like Democracy.

	21-01-2004 00:25									#372
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quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe I'll not argue there are always better things to produce. The choice of production tho' IMHO belongs to the masses in the form of voting with money than in the hands of a much smaller committe.

Why? The "masses" do not have any intelligence as one- now, lets talk about the individual human being:
which label is most important? Citizen, or Consumer? Isit more important that each Consumer have the coice of whatever little object the porducers produce, or is it more important for all citizens to, for example, have access to services that we are rich enough to provide universally and that can make a far greater difference in ones lives than the porducts they might consume otherwise?

	21-01-2004 00:30									#373
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quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe The collective opinions of individuals is the proper course. We're not talking a singular individual. We're talking the composite of an entire market. Kinna like Democracy.

The "market" is, as was stated, simple a process to decide how resources should be allocated given a certain set of priorities. It is not magical, it has no morality. It is not like dmeocracy, which is a structure of governance built upon its own set oif assumptions.

The question is, what are the priorities. The market, to work "wisely", if that is possible, the people choosing must be well informed. badly informed consumers will make bad choices- they could do no better, their informartion is bad. That is the point of advertising, to infrom the consumer, and why the state must stop false advertising, becuase it warps the market. But false advertisement, or better yet, lack of information about what is actually best for people is a key problem of the market today: in many ways, people don't have a way to know how a choice will really affect them or anyone else.

	21-01-2004 00:30									#374
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quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe The collective opinions of individuals is the proper course. We're not talking a singular individual. We're talking the composite of an entire market. Kinna like Democracy.

You don't understand. The very same logic that makes self interest provide socially beneficial outcomes in market competition also prevents other socially beneficial outcomes from coming to pass.

	21-01-2004 00:31									#375
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And so you presuppose an threshold of intelligence to determine production.

The logical conclusion is an intellectual elitist class.

	21-01-2004 00:32									#376
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Why are our "votes" as consumers more important than our votes as citizens?

	21-01-2004 00:35									#377
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon You don't understand. The very same logic that makes self interest provide socially beneficial outcomes in market competition also prevents other socially beneficial outcomes from coming to pass.

I understand what you are saying completely. I simply disagree.

	21-01-2004 00:37									#378
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quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe I understand what you are saying completely. I simply disagree.

You can't disagree, it's simply a matter of logic. If everyone acts self interestedly the outcome in such situations is always less than optimal.

You are like someone who says 2 and 2 is 5.

	21-01-2004 00:38									#379
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quote: Originally posted by GePap The question is, what are the priorities. The market, to work "wisely", if that is possible, the people choosing must be well informed. badly informed consumers will make bad choices- they could do no better, their informartion is bad. That is the point of advertising, to infrom the consumer, and why the state must stop false advertising, becuase it warps the market. But false advertisement, or better yet, lack of information about what is actually best for people is a key problem of the market today: in many ways, people don't have a way to know how a choice will really affect them or anyone else.

Now you get to a good point.

Prioritization based upon best known info. If one assumes that the plethora of information available is overwhelming and that choices are made are essentially blind or misinformed, what makes you think a smaller selcet group would have the wherewithal to make good decision. Ohh... I forgot they are the superuberhuman class right?

	21-01-2004 00:40									#380
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quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe I understand what you are saying completely. I simply disagree.

Its the classic prisoners dilema:

Neither talk: both get off. Both talk: both get 20 years. one talks, he gets 5, the other guy 35 years in prison.

Which is the optimal choice for a prisoner, given that they are alone, without being able to discuss with each other what will they do?

	21-01-2004 00:40									#381
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Why are our "votes" as consumers more important than our votes as citizens?

Because as citizens we have no right to choose productions. That is reserved for the property owners.

	21-01-2004 00:42									#382
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Its the classic prisoners dilema: Neither talk: both get off. Both talk: both get 20 years. one talks, he gets 5, the other guy 35 years in prison. Which is the optimal choice for a prisoner, given that they are alone, without being able to discuss with each other what will they do?

Shouldna done the crime in the first place.

	21-01-2004 00:43									#383
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quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe Now you get to a good point. Prioritization based upon best known info. If one assumes that the plethora of information available is overwhelming and that choices are made are essentially blind or misinformed, what makes you think a smaller selcet group would have the wherewithal to make good decision. Ohh... I forgot they are the superuberhuman class right?

You spoke of masses- in a sense, the masses AS CITIZENS, can ELECT people to make central priorities, and give them the resources to investigate things they as individuals could not possibly do, thus having better (if not perfect) information with which to make decisions as to how to allocate goods..sounds almost like, government.......

	21-01-2004 00:44									#384
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quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe Shouldna done the crime in the first place.

And people shouldn;t eat, then there would be no hunger..

And people shouldn;t breath, cause then air pollution would not matter!

Damn guilty people for living!

	21-01-2004 00:47									#385
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quote: Originally posted by GePap You spoke of masses- in a sense, the masses AS CITIZENS, can ELECT people to make central priorities, and give them the resources to investigate things they as individuals could not possibly do, thus having better (if not perfect) information with which to make decisions as to how to allocate goods..sounds almost like, government.......

Or they could rely on an impartial private group like ohh say Consumer Reports that provides them that same info without having to bloat the government. Sounds like market and Democracy

	21-01-2004 00:51									#386
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quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe Because as citizens we have no right to choose productions. That is reserved for the property owners.

Why?

	21-01-2004 01:18									#387
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Why not?

	21-01-2004 01:22									#388
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quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe Or they could rely on an impartial private group like ohh say Consumer Reports that provides them that same info without having to bloat the government. Sounds like market and Democracy

Somehting like 'consumer reports" would have no influence or power, over, lets say, allocating resources towards a transportation gird, health care, specially preventive care for all, defense spending, R&R spending not done by tax companies, so forth and so on.

The situation is bigger than SUV's or pes..those are simply examples of a system in which you argue for letting people buy bigger TV or pants as some greater fundamental good, than say being able to make sure every kid is immunized and all people have access to basic preventive medicine.

	21-01-2004 01:23									#389
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quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe Why not?

because property rights are created by the state, not by owners themselves, becuase there are no natural rights of property.

	21-01-2004 01:27									#390
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And the state created by the people endowing the state with those same rights Blah blah blah.