21-01-2004 01:34									#391
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Somehting like 'consumer reports" would have no influence or power, over, lets say, allocating resources towards a transportation gird, health care, specially preventive care for all, defense spending, R&R spending not done by tax companies, so forth and so on. The situation is bigger than SUV's or pes..those are simply examples of a system in which you argue for letting people buy bigger TV or pants as some greater fundamental good, than say being able to make sure every kid is immunized and all people have access to basic preventive medicine.

The fundamental good I argue for is the right to participate in the making of those decisions.

As I see it in simplistic terms we have the classic representational problem wrt to the determinations of production. To use an analogy the great compromise when framing the US constitution. States of wealth (read large populace) wanted representation according to population, whilst states of poverty wished equality of representation due to member status (citizenship). Seems to me we have in essence that same system already in play. Market economics tempered by government.

I see no reason to change one house of representation.

	21-01-2004 01:47									#392
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quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe The fundamental good I argue for is the right to participate in the making of those decisions.

You do, if you VOTE.

quote: Seems to me we have in essence that same system already in play. Market economics tempered by government. I see no reason to change one house of representation.

well, the point is that eventually the system will NOT work...that is what Marx predicted- once capitalism reachers a certain stage.

	21-01-2004 01:53									#393
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quote: Originally posted by GePap You do, if you VOTE.

I do when I buy!

quote: well, the point is that eventually the system will NOT work...that is what Marx predicted- once capitalism reachers a certain stage.

And we keep waiting.

	21-01-2004 02:04									#394
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quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe I do when I buy!

You buy CV's? Hospitals? thousands of miles of highways? Regulatory agencies? wow, you must be loaded.

	21-01-2004 02:33									#395
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quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe I understand what you are saying completely. I simply disagree.

I don't believe that you understand. Agathon wasted his time finding an educational link for you and you didn't use it. Who cares if you disagree, because you have chosen to remain ignorant on the subject?

	21-01-2004 02:35									#396
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quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe Why not?

You made a positivie assertion. It's up to you to defend it.

	21-01-2004 02:52									#397
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Nice shiny new avatar there, Che.

	21-01-2004 03:02									#398
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Havana Moon, by Santana. Slowwy picked it out, and I thought, what the heck, it'll make him happy.

	21-01-2004 03:08									#399
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quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe The fundamental good I argue for is the right to participate in the making of those decisions. As I see it in simplistic terms we have the classic representational problem wrt to the determinations of production. To use an analogy the great compromise when framing the US constitution. States of wealth (read large populace) wanted representation according to population, whilst states of poverty wished equality of representation due to member status (citizenship). Seems to me we have in essence that same system already in play. Market economics tempered by government. I see no reason to change one house of representation.

Your example of a political compromise has nothing to do with employing economic resources to maximize the benefit to society. Allowing individuals to produce and consume without regard to the social cost of their decisions has proven repeatedly to fail. It's not a matter of compromise. It's a matter of individuals realizing that to get the maximum benefit from the economy every individual must be refrained from producing and consuming in a manner that is costly to society.

	21-01-2004 03:14									#400
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Havana Moon, by Santana. Slowwy picked it out, and I thought, what the heck, it'll make him happy.

Though it won't make up for his disappointment when the revolution comes, will it.

	21-01-2004 03:23									#401
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Though it won't make up for his disappointment when the revolution comes, will it.

He'll be cool with it if I'm wearing cowboy boots.

	21-01-2004 03:26									#402
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara He'll be cool with it if I'm wearing cowboy boots.

All the better to stamp on his face forever!!!!

	21-01-2004 03:44									#403
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But, GePap, in communist systems, the people have no choice of whom to vote for.

I find it almost amusing that the Communists say that communism is about democratization of everything, but when you pull back the curtain and look inside what you see is the opposite.

People's Democratic Republic of .... Not a single one of them allowed the people to choose their government. Communism as practiced is not about democracy, it is about lies.

	21-01-2004 03:48									#404
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quote: Originally posted by Ned But, GePap, in communist systems, the people have no choice of whom to vote for.

Really? And you really think that if everyone in the US voted for the socialist party that they would be allowed to put their policies into practice?

	21-01-2004 03:56									#405
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Agathon, first you choose our products; now you choose whom we can vote for.

Do I understand Communism correctly?

Last edited by Ned on 21-01-2004 at 04:26

	21-01-2004 04:00									#406
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Agathon, first you choose our products; now you choose to we can for. Do I understand Communism correctly?

No.

You seem to imagine that we now have a freedom that we don't actually have. As it stands we get to choose between various flavours of fascist pig.

In a communist country you get a different choice, the only difference is that the shared assumptions of all the candidates aren't fascist Nazi pig, like they are here.

	21-01-2004 04:31									#407
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Agathon, of course.

And, as the field worker who spent his days sleeping under the shady oak tree would say, "Long live the Communist Party."

	21-01-2004 04:43									#408
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quote: Originally posted by Ned But, GePap, in communist systems, the people have no choice of whom to vote for.

We have already been over the point Ned than none of the "communist" states that have come into ebing came into ebing in the way orthodox marxism expected.

quote: I find it almost amusing that the Communists say that communism is about democratization of everything, but when you pull back the curtain and look inside what you see is the opposite.

In the Lenisist, maoist versions, yes, but not in the orthodox marxist.

quote: People's Democratic Republic of .... Not a single one of them allowed the people to choose their government. Communism as practiced is not about democracy, it is about lies.

I have told you already the porblem with this: how many times further do I need?

	21-01-2004 04:53									#409
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Agathon, of course. And, as the field worker who spent his days sleeping under the shady oak tree would say, "Long live the Communist Party."

of Apolyton.

	21-01-2004 05:02									#410
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Ned's gonna start up his "workers of the field" story again. Run for the hills!

	21-01-2004 06:54									#411
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Yes. IIRC, the Mercedes Benz was built in the same factory as the Trabi.

No.

Mercedes is in Stuttgart, not in Zwickau.

	21-01-2004 07:52									#412
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious I don't believe that you understand. Agathon wasted his time finding an educational link for you and you didn't use it. Who cares if you disagree, because you have chosen to remain ignorant on the subject?

Agathon wastes his time with many things not the least of which is indoctrinating himself with communist drivel.

But in order to be fair I took the time to review the links only to be spectacularly unimpressed.

I was hoping to see a description that speaks to mass statistical representation of markets but didn't.

I was hoping to see some empirical evidence of the more democratic process of the market yielding an overall worse outcome where n=280,000,000 but could not.

What I saw interstingly enough was a discusssion of game theory and a villification of lobbyists.

Additonally an endorsement of tax cuts too unless I misread.

And probably the most interesting piece of all in this otherwise wasted journey is that when I clicked the link I was taken to E-bay.

Now that my book report is done. I still disagree like it or not.

	21-01-2004 07:55									#413
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara You made a positivie assertion. It's up to you to defend it.

No I represented the status quo.

	21-01-2004 07:58									#414
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Really? And you really think that if everyone in the US voted for the socialist party that they would be allowed to put their policies into practice?

Within the context of the constitution and or amendments to the same, yes.

God help us tho' if we ever get that stupid.

	21-01-2004 08:27									#415
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Your example of a political compromise has nothing to do with employing economic resources to maximize the benefit to society. Allowing individuals to produce and consume without regard to the social cost of their decisions has proven repeatedly to fail. It's not a matter of compromise. It's a matter of individuals realizing that to get the maximum benefit from the economy every individual must be refrained from producing and consuming in a manner that is costly to society.

But who gets to decide what is a "benefit to society" or what is a "cost to society"?

Can you define these for me and weight them accordingly?

And after you've done that make sure that your definition of these same benefits and costs are in keeping with the other 280MM folk m'kay?

	21-01-2004 08:36									#416
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quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe No I represented the status quo.

Which really means nothing. If you do, then you should have plenty of suporting evidence out there..were is it?

	21-01-2004 08:45									#417
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I stated the fact of the present I neither have to defend it nor attack it.

	21-01-2004 08:47									#418
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Because you can't defend it?

	21-01-2004 08:48									#419
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quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe I stated the fact of the present I neither have to defend it nor attack it.

sad cop out.

	21-01-2004 08:50									#420
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Didn't realize facts required defense.