17-01-2004 04:43									#241
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi I don't doubt there are areas that should not be privatised. and I agree that Canada, as a society is more efficient than many other places. I just think there are ways we can improve our health care system. Yes, the state does pay promptly, but it also pays too freely. Even Canada's system has plenty of waste we can trim. It's an interesting question, as to which is more efficient, but we have to look over the long run. For example, as a student I benefit greatly from the collective power of all the students having to pay for a bus pass. In turn, this increases the ridership for the buses, making public transit more competitive when compared to other forms of transportation. The problem is that this arrangement does not cater well to innovation, nor does it adapt well to changes in circumstances.

I don't see why this is so. If public transport starts to suck people will go elsewhere and the government will end up holding the can.

Anyway, I'm off to watch the Leafs play the Flyers. Should be a lot of biffo.

	17-01-2004 05:19									#242
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Yeah, I got a party later on tonight.

So happy to finish off my medical ethics paper.

If I'm lucky I might get published, if not, there will still be some people interested in the essay.

	17-01-2004 05:51									#243
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I see none of you commies answering the question about productivity. All you ever do is talk about state takeovers of private business, etc., etc., etc., when the goal as stated is to achieve so much productivity that everything is relatively inexpensive.

State monopolies lead to massive inefficiency and to relative poverty because they eliminate competition. Insistence on state monopolies at the expense of productivity and wealth suggests that communism is insincere.

	17-01-2004 05:59									#244
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quote: Originally posted by Ned I see none of you commies answering the question about productivity.

Didn't see it, sorry.

Remember, Ned, eficiency is a matter of measurement. It depends upon what you're measuring. So, American health care may be very efficient at making a profit, but from a measure of dollars spent, it is exceedingly inefficient, because so much of it is spent on overhead rather than on actual health care. Canadian heath care is very efficient at serving everyone, but it is inefficient when it comes to seeing people promptly. If the goal of a socialist business was to ensure everyone had jobs, then it will seem very inefficient to those who want to make profits.

Lemme go look for your prodctivity question.

edit: Looking back, I think I did answer it. You might want to re-post the question.

	17-01-2004 07:45									#245
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Well, Che, let's just put it this way. Massive production and efficiency will eventually free everyone from "want." That is the holy grail. It seems that communists seem to lose sight of the holy grail to the extent they adopt policies advocate policies that lead to inefficiency or poverty. State monopolies are never as efficient in producing goods and services as are businesses that compete. It seems to me that communists are not being sincere to the extent that they advocate these kind of policies while rejecting everything else.

The ChiComs are showing the way, are they not? They are junking state monopolies in favor of private businesses for the very purpose of raising the average standard of living. China should be the example that all communists follow, IMHO.

	17-01-2004 08:01									#246
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I think the PRC may be adopting a policy of letting the capitalists build up China in order to achieve socialist goals. We have to keep in consideration that the Chinese proletariet did not become more than 50% of the population until less than ten years ago. China has simply not been industrialized enough to achieve socialism. Since China rejects international revolution now, they only other way they can increase productivity is to give incentives to capitalists.

Consider that it's probably easier to keep an eye on a couple million capitalists than half a billion workers. This is why I think the CCP didn't create "socialist"-enterprise zones, where workers would be freed from the party bureuacracy and allowed to experiement and innovate. I would have really liked to have seen that experiment.

I have a fantasy about getting Castro to allow such an experiment in a small section of Cuba, and see what unleashed workers can do.

Freeing people from want isn't an end in itself, but actually a means to an end. The real end is to free people from the necessary distractions of the world (ensuring shelter, survival, food, etc.) and allowing people to learn and play and create and to develop our full potentials as humans. Imagine having the free time to take classes the rest of your life, while still being able to produce enough to feed you and yours, and keep the world clean and beautiful and still having time to relax. That's the ultimate goal.

Disagreements are on the best way to get there.

	17-01-2004 08:14									#247
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Well, communists need to be more flexible. The US is actually approaching the ideal state that communism envisions. It would be interesting if communist would see the US as good, rather than evil. That certainly would change most Americans attitude about communists.

	17-01-2004 08:18									#248
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Well, that whole war-mongering, screwing the poor thing would have to stop.

	17-01-2004 09:24									#249
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The original contact lenses were invented in Communist Czechoslovakia. If you wear contact lenses, you owe that to us commies!

	17-01-2004 10:11									#250
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Somethign like this does not get started because of "kings", and such a system existed prior to the large political systems you need for anyone even to be called a king. So I have no idea were you pulled out the notion that this was becuase a king might start a war.

Firstly I never said king, monarchy, or espoused any form of government or level of poltivcal system.

Secondly any example you use to try espouse the altruistic nature of man and his need to create social constructs can just as easily be shown to have more dark and sinister motives.

	17-01-2004 10:49									#251
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara The original contact lenses were invented in Communist Czechoslovakia. If you wear contact lenses, you owe that to us commies!

Really??

I wear a soft contact lens in my left eye (no external lens in right eye).

	17-01-2004 10:58									#252
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I was partly educated in communism. Till the age of 10. I still fondly remember some of the indoctrination . Being introduced to Pioneers (kid organization) and swearing an oath to protect the brotherhood and unity of Yugoslavia and it's peoples *sigh*, I did it at the age of 7 or 8. We broke the oath later

	17-01-2004 16:23									#253
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quote: Originally posted by Patroklos Efficient in everyone has access to it, not efficient in actually giving people quality of service.

On what basis did you make such an assertion?

	17-01-2004 16:28									#254
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Remember that this is expressing a probability, not a certainty. It's quite likely that a lot of our scientific beliefs are wrong, because we don't yet understand everything as is evidenced by the lack of a grand unified theory.

Then the statement should have been expressed in a probabilistic way.

At any rate, sciences are never right or wrong. They are just more or less accurate.

	17-01-2004 16:34									#255
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara I think the PRC may be adopting a policy of letting the capitalists build up China in order to achieve socialist goals. We have to keep in consideration that the Chinese proletariet did not become more than 50% of the population until less than ten years ago.

They still are not. Peasants still are the majority, somewhere between 70% - 75% IIRC.

	17-01-2004 19:40									#256
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quote: Originally posted by Ned But, if this is your goal, anything that harms increasing productivity has got to be harmful to communism. State ownership of businesses and suppression of competition demonstratively harms competition. It seemingly advances the goal of democratic control of the means of production, but at a very high cost that ultimately defeats the true goal of high productivity. What advances Marx's goals best is nearly universal ownership of corporations (in general) by the workers while maintaining competition, as competition brings high and increasing productivity. But this is America, not Cuba.

How can you call a system that has collapsed, that the starving masses have rejected, as efficient. It may be productive, but not efficient because it's not allocating resources. It's the competition and lack of central planning that will cause the collapse.

	17-01-2004 19:44									#257
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quote: Originally posted by Ned The US is actually approaching the ideal state that communism envisions.

This is certainly sig material.

	17-01-2004 19:55									#258
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quote: Originally posted by Ned State monopolies are never as efficient in producing goods and services as are businesses that compete.

Besides the fact that this is false, distribution is another issue. Distributing resources efficiently, that is in a way that society benefits from them the most, is something that capitalism is very poor at. Just because things are produced and comsumed doesn't mean that they have been done so efficiently, even if you have done it at the lowest cost. Measuring the true benefits to society of what a system produces is difficult but certainly a system that produces only goods and services for those who have an ability and willingness to pay is not efficient in this regard.

	17-01-2004 20:06									#259
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quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe Firstly I never said king, monarchy, or espoused any form of government or level of poltivcal system. Secondly any example you use to try espouse the altruistic nature of man and his need to create social constructs can just as easily be shown to have more dark and sinister motives.

You still miss the point that what I described had nothing to do with altruism..read it again, and carefully this time:

People create this culture of hospitality becuase they expect returns for their actions- I care for you when you are in need, and you will reciprocate when I am in need- this web of obligations is created for self-interested reasons- maybe today I don;t need help- but what if I need help tommorrow and I have been a bastard and never helped anyone? NO one will help me, and then I am dead. That is not altruism, which is action without expectation of reciprication.

	17-01-2004 22:28									#260
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger They still are not. Peasants still are the majority, somewhere between 70% - 75% IIRC.

Don't forget the rural proletariat.

	18-01-2004 00:03									#261
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quote: In any event, there's nothing we could do to stop anyone from slapping CPA on themselves.

	18-01-2004 00:13									#262
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quote: Originally posted by GePap You still miss the point that what I described had nothing to do with altruism..read it again, and carefully this time: People create this culture of hospitality becuase they expect returns for their actions- I care for you when you are in need, and you will reciprocate when I am in need- this web of obligations is created for self-interested reasons- maybe today I don;t need help- but what if I need help tommorrow and I have been a bastard and never helped anyone? NO one will help me, and then I am dead. That is not altruism, which is action without expectation of reciprication.

Within that context I agree. Within the context of it being an essential need to be sociable, I disagree.

	18-01-2004 01:07									#263
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Besides the fact that this is false, distribution is another issue. Distributing resources efficiently, that is in a way that society benefits from them the most, is something that capitalism is very poor at. Just because things are produced and comsumed doesn't mean that they have been done so efficiently, even if you have done it at the lowest cost. Measuring the true benefits to society of what a system produces is difficult but certainly a system that produces only goods and services for those who have an ability and willingness to pay is not efficient in this regard.

The only thing central planning is good that is distorting economies into areas of production they would not otherwise go.

I give you the Nazi war machine as one example.

But if you take any product such as a widget and want to find out what system is better in producing a widget, you will find that competition always will bring you better and cheaper widgets than will a monopoly producing widgets.

As I said, what you claim to be efficient is choosing what to produce by committee rather than letting the market choose want to produce.

In the long run, planned systems can never compete with competitive systems in producing anything at high quality and low-cost.

	18-01-2004 01:08									#264
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And, kid, did you say that the United States was a collapsed capitalist system?

	18-01-2004 01:20									#265
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quote: Originally posted by Ned The only thing central planning is good that is distorting economies into areas of production they would not otherwise go. I give you the Nazi war machine as one example.

And that is a big thing to be good for.

quote: Originally posted by Ned But if you take any product such as a widget and want to find out what system is better in producing a widget, you will find that competition always will bring you better and cheaper widgets than will a monopoly producing widgets.

It depends on the size of the market, or how many you want produced. Sometimes goods are produced cheaper with a monopoly because of the lower average costs associated with more production.

quote: Originally posted by Ned In the long run, planned systems can never compete with competitive systems in producing anything at high quality and low-cost.

Isn't this a contradiction to your first comment.

You overestimate the level of competition in the capitalist system. The most competitive markets are those that have relatively little profit associated with the price of the product or service. Labor is very competitive, but as a resource it is the least mobile in a free market. Another thing about labor is that wages are sticky on the way down. So competition alone can not make markets efficient.

	18-01-2004 01:24									#266
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quote: Originally posted by Ned And, kid, did you say that the United States was a collapsed capitalist system?

No. Marx predicted that the revolution would come after the collapse of capitalism.

	18-01-2004 01:26									#267
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Kid, I don't overestimate anything as I have worked in both aerospace and in commercial products areas in my time. I can tell you that the more competitive commercial products area consistently produced higher quality, lower cost products.

Just think. Did the Communist Bloc ever produce any car than anyone in the West in their right minds would buy?

	18-01-2004 01:40									#268
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Kid, I don't overestimate anything as I have worked in both aerospace and in commercial products areas in my time. I can tell you that the more competitive commercial products area consistently produced higher quality, lower cost products.

I meant that you overestimate the level of competition in the economy. If you're in a competitive industry, you're in the wrong industry, because there isn't much profit there.

quote: Originally posted by Ned Just think. Did the Communist Bloc ever produce any car than anyone in the West in their right minds would buy?

I don't want to go here, defending the Communist Bloc.

	18-01-2004 01:41									#269
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious No. Marx predicted that the revolution would come after the collapse of capitalism.

So what if Marx predicted the next Ice Age. Marx was not God.

A lot of what Marx had to say about capitalism has got to be put to a lie by the reality of the USA. Production is high. Things are cheap. Everyone is taken care of, including old people. We are trending, rapidly trending, towards that utopia Marx envisioned.

Given their prosperity in today's America, why would any worker want to "revolt?"

	18-01-2004 03:03									#270
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: In any event, there's nothing we could do to stop anyone from slapping CPA on themselves.