20-01-2004 20:26									#331
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT So... 12 different detergents are really 5 because there are only 5 detergent manufacturers represented in your local Kroger?

Do you think Tide, Cheer, Era, etc, are really all that different when the come from the same factory? They even have the same packaging.

It's like the inexpensive cheese story someone here on Poly told once. The deli guy slived of a large wedge and priced it up. When consumers asked what the difference was, he said, absolutely nothing, but they bought it up anyways. He kept dividing and upping the price, and soon sold off most of his cheese simply because consumers thought there was a difference.

	20-01-2004 20:54									#332
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quote: Ned is half correct. Cambodia is led by a communist party. In fact, Hun Sen (sp?) was the leader of Cambodia during the years of Vietnamese occupation. Cambodia, however, has a market economy, so it's not really a socialist/communist cuontry.

My understanding is that the party passes themselves off as social democrats nowadays.

	20-01-2004 20:58									#333
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quote: Originally posted by GePap And what si the counterarguement? how many people here decide they needed a flatscreen high definitions Tv and wrote to the TV makers askign them to make it? What about bobblehead dolls? Foam novelty hands? SUV's? Certainly, a producer of goods can come up with an improved product, a new form of something old, and get consumers to buy it as an "imporve" version, but anythign trully novel does NOT come out due to demand-you simply can NOT demand what you have no diea exists- you can demand a better form of something old, but not something new. When something trully new comes out, it is up to the manufacturer to create demand- most beneingly simply by telling consumers his product exists, sometimes by manufacturing a reason why you need itand getting people to buy that as well. The issue of demand and capitalism becomes this though, for some old prodcuts there is no improvement possible, so what does a company do to increase sales, or their share of business? They must manufacture some new "need" in order to get something out of the market.

What is your point?

Is it simply that marketing is wrong? That new market creation and appeal to consumers is inherently evil. That frivolous products should never be made?

I guess we should simply eliminate these frivoulous endevours and add to the jobless situation then no?

As for Che's arguement, it does bespeak a problem with capitalism the formation of large barriers to market entry and monopolies without true competition. If airbags were truly the end all be all feature clamored for by every marketing study, the first to adopt this technology should in theory be the winner. Failing that a serious bevy of competitor should force the issue. Seems to me one of 2 things are at odds here.

a)The auto manufacturers completely missed the boat wrt market wants or
b) The supposed desire/value of air bags did not translate into a profitable feature as the cost of such airbags was not inline with the expected sales/profit.
Another words its alright to want something but bear in mind there is no such thing as a free lunch (even in communism).

	20-01-2004 21:00									#334
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Do you think Tide, Cheer, Era, etc, are really all that different when the come from the same factory? They even have the same packaging. It's like the inexpensive cheese story someone here on Poly told once. The deli guy slived of a large wedge and priced it up. When consumers asked what the difference was, he said, absolutely nothing, but they bought it up anyways. He kept dividing and upping the price, and soon sold off most of his cheese simply because consumers thought there was a difference.

The fact that they are chemically different using different surfactants, builders, and enzymes I guess means nothing.

The fact that there is demonstratable difference in there effectivity I guess means nothing.

The fact that you perceive no difference means everything.

	20-01-2004 21:19									#335
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quote: Originally posted by GePap The issue of demand and capitalism becomes this though, for some old prodcuts there is no improvement possible, so what does a company do to increase sales, or their share of business? They must manufacture some new "need" in order to get something out of the market.

In the commie world, they would continue to make buggy whips to protect worker jobs.

The buggy whips would pile up on shelves, unneeded and unsold.

What is a good socialist to do?

Why of course!

Ban cars.

	20-01-2004 22:44									#336
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quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe What is your point? Is it simply that marketing is wrong? That new market creation and appeal to consumers is inherently evil. That frivolous products should never be made? I guess we should simply eliminate these frivoulous endevours and add to the jobless situation then no?

The point is that real benefit to society should be the measure of your system of production. You and Ned are arguing for the market, and Che and Gepap have given you a good argument against the market. So if your only response is to say that the market is needed to create jobs I suggest you try again.

	20-01-2004 22:50									#337
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Ban cars.

That's not a bad idea since the car system was effectively forced on us by corporations buying up all the streetcar tracks and destroying them, as well as getting the state to pay for all the roads.

The suburbs are a good example of an inefficient mode of living foisted on us by corporate intervention.

	20-01-2004 23:09									#339
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Look!

You got JohnT to laugh!!

	20-01-2004 23:10									#340
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Something usually reserved for Sava...

	20-01-2004 23:11									#341
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But Agathon is right.

	20-01-2004 23:12									#342
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Yes, because we all know how many streetcars existed in the US (Yeah, I know Agathon isn't from around here... but you are) in 1910. Millions! Billions!

	20-01-2004 23:14									#343
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Kid, you make a good point about socialism. If you define the meausrement of success the way you do, why of course socialism is a success.

The buggy-whip worker has his job and is making a good living. All is well in paradise.

	20-01-2004 23:14									#344
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And there are no cars foisted upon an unwilling populace by the merchants of evil!

	20-01-2004 23:19									#345
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT Yes, because we all know how many streetcars existed in the US (Yeah, I know Agathon isn't from around here... but you are) in 1910. Millions! Billions!

What does that matter? The point is that Americans drive their cars too much, and that is a result of the market and corporations.

	20-01-2004 23:20									#346
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No, it is the result of the people driving their cars.

And define "too much" in terms other than "more than I'd like for them to."

	20-01-2004 23:21									#347
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT

I would have thought that you would have been better informed.

This happened in Los Angeles which then embarked on a massive road building program in 1947. This was the prototype for the New Jersey Garden Parkway and Turnpike and then the rest of the states up until Eisenhower started the National Highway program in 1956.

A consortium of automakers, tire manufacturers and other interested parties bought up the public streetcar system and tore up the tracks to replace them with buses. IIRC they did this elsewhere too.

You should look before you leap.

	20-01-2004 23:22									#348
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Kid, you make a good point about socialism. If you define the meausrement of success the way you do, why of course socialism is a success. The buggy-whip worker has his job and is making a good living. All is well in paradise.

I think it would be better to have trains and let the buggy-whip worker work in that industry, and just cut working hours down. How does that sound?

	20-01-2004 23:22									#349
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In 1947.... 30+ years after the Model T was introduced. 35,000,000 cars on the road at that time and you think people were just going to switch to public transportation 'cause of a few LA trolleys?

	20-01-2004 23:23									#350
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT Yes, because we all know how many streetcars existed in the US (Yeah, I know Agathon isn't from around here... but you are) in 1910. Millions! Billions!

It's not my fault you are ignorant on this issue. Public transportation which was not dependent on gasoline was deliberately sabotaged by corporate interests.

Them's just the facts.

	20-01-2004 23:26									#351
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT In 1947.... 30+ years after the Model T was introduced. 35,000,000 cars on the road at that time and you think people were just going to switch to public transportation 'cause of a few LA trolleys?

Don't be ridiculous. Efficient public transportation was destroyed and roads were built at the public expense. Rail was de-emphasized in favour of roads, with predictable results.

If you want to sound off like an ignorant **** that's fine with me, but you should read around first.

	20-01-2004 23:26									#352
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT No, it is the result of the people driving their cars.

People driving thier cars is the result of people driving their cars.

quote: Originally posted by JohnT And define "too much" in terms other than "more than I'd like for them to."

Why?

	20-01-2004 23:27									#353
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious The point is that real benefit to society should be the measure of your system of production. You and Ned are arguing for the market, and Che and Gepap have given you a good argument against the market. So if your only response is to say that the market is needed to create jobs I suggest you try again.

Does not compute.

The real arguement is demand is ultimately the driver of production not supply. Regardless of inventory position etc. demand (market wants) ultimately fuels production Mr. Econ.

You may scoff at the frivolity of some product offerings (i.e. the demand) but hey you get to vote with your dollars, no?

The mere fact that frivoulous offerings actually provide employment and value to society beyond their insignificant worth is not worth discussing tho'.

And of course the mere existance of these frivolous products belittles all the worthwhile advances market economies actually provide.

Finaly, I also question the speed of innovation in such beautiful communist states. How many years did it take communist states to introduce air bags in their vehicles?

	20-01-2004 23:32									#354
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quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe What is your point? Is it simply that marketing is wrong? That new market creation and appeal to consumers is inherently evil. That frivolous products should never be made? I guess we should simply eliminate these frivoulous endevours and add to the jobless situation then no?

Aha, but you see the point- captalism is so productive that only by having resources spent on these things, as opposed to say, better health care for millions, you leave millions unemployed.

Which begins to expose the problems with capitalism. Notice that capitalism and the free market are not synonimous: after all, the market is old, and a trully free market would also undermine business- it must be regulated even if it comes to the very idea of copyright, which is, after all, a barrier to a trully FREE markets.

	20-01-2004 23:32									#355
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon It's not my fault you are ignorant on this issue. Public transportation which was not dependent on gasoline was deliberately sabotaged by corporate interests. Them's just the facts.

Darn those corporations who brainwashed folks into thinking that the freedom to travel was something worthwhile.

Guess we shoulda just let all them crops rot in the fields. Whoops forgot. Them there tractors woulda been able to plant them crops. No problem.

	20-01-2004 23:38									#356
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quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe The real arguement is demand is ultimately the driver of production not supply. Regardless of inventory position etc. demand (market wants) ultimately fuels production Mr. Econ.

Are you arguing that business doesn't create demand for their products? I think it's obvious that it does.

quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe You may scoff at the frivolity of some product offerings (i.e. the demand) but hey you get to vote with your dollars, no?

Do you understand that just because a product benefits me personally that it doesn't necessarily benefit society?

quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe The mere fact that frivoulous offerings actually provide employment and value to society beyond their insignificant worth is not worth discussing tho'.

That's ridiculous. We don't need to create jobs just for the sake of creating jobs. If 'work' doesn't create anything beneficial to society then it shouldn't be done.

	20-01-2004 23:40									#357
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From a quick Google search:

http://www.culturechange.org/issue1...-for-a-ride.htm

http://www.uwsp.edu/geo/courses/geo...arCult-Big3.htm

http://www.bilderberg.org/socal.htm

http://www.trainweb.org/mts/ctc/ctc06.html

I'm sitting down now reading a Republican Conservative (Clyde Prestowitz) talk about it.

Some people disagree about the nature and depth of this little scheme, but it's not a whacked out conspiracy theory. It's a point of scholarly dispute if anything.

	20-01-2004 23:42									#358
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Are you arguing that business doesn't create demand for their products? I think it's obvious that it does.

I've never argued anything of the sort. I fully understand companies attempt to generate interest in their products. It is the responsibility of the individual to understand their own benefit. Or would you prefer to deny the individual this right?

quote: Do you understand that just because a product benefits me personally that it doesn't necessarily benefit society?

One must question whether anything could help you.

quote: That's ridiculous. We don't need to create jobs just for the sake of creating jobs. If 'work' doesn't create anything beneficial to society then it shouldn't be done.

This from the commie.

	20-01-2004 23:44									#359
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Aha, but you see the point- captalism is so productive that only by having resources spent on these things, as opposed to say, better health care for millions, you leave millions unemployed. Which begins to expose the problems with capitalism. Notice that capitalism and the free market are not synonimous: after all, the market is old, and a trully free market would also undermine business- it must be regulated even if it comes to the very idea of copyright, which is, after all, a barrier to a trully FREE markets.

I'll not argue there are always better things to produce. The choice of production tho' IMHO belongs to the masses in the form of voting with money than in the hands of a much smaller committe.

	20-01-2004 23:46									#360
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quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe Or would you prefer to deny the individual this right?

You take individual benefit to be the measure of a good economy. Economists use social benefit. And I don't have a response to the rest of your spam.