14-01-2004 19:37									#1
	AA combat formula Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

• The real strength of each AA unit is 1/10th of the value shown in the editor. So Flak has a strength of 0.2.
  
• Each AA unit in the tile being bombarded takes a shot against the defense of the bombarding air unit. The chance of shooting down the air unit is A/(A+D), as with all other forms of combat in Civ3. Remember, A is 10 times less than what is in the editor for the AA unit.
  
• The maximum number of AA units that are given a chance to shoot down the plane is 4. Any AA units above 4 are ignored.
  

	14-01-2004 20:13									#2
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alexman, basically how did you determine this (code examination, experimentation, ...)??

	14-01-2004 20:29									#3
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Experiment. Debug mode with reveal map. Gave the AI 320 bombers all within range of my only city, and a number of flak units to myself. Contacted AI and declared war. After his turn, I hit F3 to see his remaining bombers. Change stats of bombers and flak, and repeat. It doesn't take long if you switch off all animations.

	14-01-2004 20:47									#4
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Thanks, alexman.

-Arrian

	14-01-2004 21:11									#5
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This is one of my pet peeves, that we have to depend on folks like alexman to tell us how the game works. It ought to be revealed by Firaxis. Another case of developer's ego.

Great work. Kudos.

	14-01-2004 21:39									#6
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Nice job, alexman

Catt

	14-01-2004 21:41									#7
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cool

	14-01-2004 21:46									#8
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So stationing more than 4 AA units in a city is a waste?

	14-01-2004 21:47									#9
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Unless some of them die during the bombing.

	14-01-2004 22:25									#10
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help me out here please, ..

A = attack value

D = Defense value (modifiers applied? say stock defense of 6 + 50% city + 50% fortified = Defense of 12 - did i get that right ?)


So plugging in the numbers for the flak, with above defense modifiers & assuming 20 bombers, i'd get:

1 - (12 / (12 + 0.2))^min(20,4)

1 - (0.9836)^min(20,4)

now, i'm stuck on the exponent part. help me out with the 'min' part & why there are 2 numbers posing as an 'ordered pair' ?
How would i go about solving that?

	14-01-2004 22:31									#11
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Well now I know why my AA defenses were stinking the place up.

I agree with jimmytrick, this type of stuff should be documented. I don't mind if they had put it in the strat guide and made us pay, but it should be published. I understand it cost money to publish manuals, but what about readme docs. They could be hosted by the game sites and not cost them anything. The work is probably already done, as this information must be available to the devs.

	14-01-2004 22:34									#12
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D is the defense value of the bombarding air unit (2 for a bomber). No modifiers apply. A is the AA strength of the AA unit (0.2 for flak). N is the number of AA units, not the number of air units.

min(N,4) = N, if N less or equal to 4
min(N,4) = 4, if N greater than 4

Hope this helps...

Last edited by alexman on 14-01-2004 at 23:02

	14-01-2004 22:42									#13
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Splendid work!

	14-01-2004 23:25									#14
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quote: Originally posted by jimmytrick This is one of my pet peeves, that we have to depend on folks like alexman to tell us how the game works. It ought to be revealed by Firaxis. Another case of developer's ego.

I agree that it should be revealed, but then would Alexman get as much enjoyment out of the game?

Firaxis has always had this problem, even when BR was running the show, just look at the pod bloomings or pollution or whatever it was. Years, IIRC, before someone dissected that mystery. I would throw up another recent strat game (insert joke here), MoO3 as an example of the players having no clue as to the mechanics which greatly sabotaged the game's success (there were problems far beyond that though :lol

	15-01-2004 00:09									#15
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ah, oki thanks alexman - i feel stupid now that i asked

anyway, if i did my math right, then a bomber with a defense value of 2, would have the following chance to get shot down:

(**edit see alexman's data**)

Last edited by MattPilot on 15-01-2004 at 01:10

	15-01-2004 00:13									#16
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More like:
1 AA unit: 9%
2 AA units: 17%
3 AA units: 25%
4 AA units: 32%

Assuming the AA unit is a flak.

	15-01-2004 00:14									#17
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btw, another question:

Does every AA get to 'try' to shoot down every plane, or does it become inactive after it shot down one plane?

Assuming i have 4 AA units in a city, and the enemy sends over 100 bombers in one turn. Say I shoot down the first 4 bombers, do the remaining 96 bombers have free passage or are they still subject to the AA?

Just like the Arty, once it did a defensive bombardment, it won't shoot again in that turn.

	15-01-2004 00:28									#18
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I have seen 3 and even 4 bombers shot down and the city only had Sam and 1 mobile sam.

	15-01-2004 00:31									#19
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Unlike fighter airplanes, AA units get one chance to shoot down each bomber (unless they get killed by the lethal bombardment, of course)

	15-01-2004 00:54									#20
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 ...this type of stuff should be documented. I don't mind if they had put it in the strat guide and made us pay, but it should be published.

But then what would alexman do with his spare time? He'd go mad I say... MAaAaAdDd!!!

Thanx for this info alexman. Gives us real strategy with our AA.

	15-01-2004 01:09									#21
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ah your right alexman, i'm sorry, stupid me forgot an additional bracket which messed it up.

	15-01-2004 01:29									#22
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How does Stealth affect this?

	15-01-2004 01:52									#23
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No effect, but stealth units have a higher defense than bombers, so they are shot down less often.

	15-01-2004 02:44									#24
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And they have longer range.

	15-01-2004 02:49									#25
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And they look cooler.

	15-01-2004 03:06									#26
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this is really great, thanks alexman

	15-01-2004 03:07									#27
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quote: Originally posted by alexman Change stats of bombers and flak, and repeat. It doesn't take long if you switch off all animations.

How do you change stats? I thought every time you make an editor change you had to generate a new map or load a common scenario and editor changes do not effect saved games.

== PF

	15-01-2004 03:56									#28
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Alexman the Corruption King, now the AA Tsar.

Huzzah.

Thanks for the info Alexman.

Steven

	15-01-2004 11:41									#29
	Re: AA combat formula Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by alexman The real strength of each AA unit is 1/10th of the value shown in the editor. So Flak has a strength of 0.2. Each AA unit in the tile being bombarded takes a shot against the defense of the bombarding air unit. The chance of shooting down the air unit is A/(A+D), as with all other forms of combat in Civ3. Remember, A is 10 times less than what is in the editor for the AA unit. The maximum number of AA units that are given a chance to shoot down the plane is 4. Any AA units above 4 are ignored. So, for example, if you want the formula for the probability of N units with a strength of A shooting down a plane with defense of D, here it is: 1 - (D / (D+A))^min(N,4)

Good to know that any amount over 4 is ignored. Its good it does this and its how it should be. It keeps someone from stacking an area full of AA and shooting down every attacking plane. Nice job alexman!

	15-01-2004 14:08									#30
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Thank God you discovered this alexman - if someone else had it would likely have been described in a far more complex manner! You always seem to have a knack of making things perfectly easy to understand, as well as figuring them out in the first place, so cheers for that.

BTW were there any uncertainties in your results at all? No slightly odd results? Everything is explained perfectly by your forrmula.

That would be the experimental physicist in me.