22-01-2004 19:47									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Lefty Scaevola Compare the number of persons who have lived much of their lives under socialist/left totatlitatian states than under right ones. Once you think of the Soviet Union and Communist China, it is not much point in counting further.

All that shows is that extreme left wing dictators have had more success than extreme right wing dictators. Says nothing about the general consensus of opinion among the left, nor it's relation to democracy.

	22-01-2004 20:25									#32
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Across the United States, the party that opposes initiative and referendum "religiously" are the Democrats.

'Nuff said.

	22-01-2004 20:26									#33
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Opposing referendum is a fair comment but "opposes initiative" is meaningless.

	22-01-2004 20:30									#34
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I am in favour of the headscarf ban. But anyway, I'm not saying your opinions have to follow the crowds.

But denouncing the decisions of a relative majority when they decide for example that Le Pen is the second most-favoured politician, or when they elect Bush, is what seems left-wingers like to do.

	22-01-2004 20:40									#35
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Yeah, when a candidate from the left gets elected the followers of the right wing party say "oh, the people voted for him, we'll get behind them and support the new leader as much as possible and not complain about what they are doing at all."

	22-01-2004 20:43									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Across the United States, the party that opposes initiative and referendum "religiously" are the Democrats.

That's because the Dums are a center-right elitist party.
Unlike the Repugs, who are far right and are more inclined to find legitimacy in a mob they carefully manipulate

	22-01-2004 20:45									#37
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I've never known right-wing politicians to say they will refuse to work with people from the left after they were rightfully elected!

quote: The leader of Burnley borough council, Labour councillor Stuart Caddey, said he would refuse to work with the BNP. He said: "We will not work with the BNP. I'm quite clear on that." He added: "It is a disaster. People are waking up this morning asking where this takes us. "It has happened. Nothing will detract from what I and the Labour council want to deliver here in Burnley."

	22-01-2004 20:50									#38
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True, neither of the main US parties is in any way left wing.

	22-01-2004 20:51									#39
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quote: True, neither of the main US parties is in any way left wing.

What about the Democratic wing of the Democratic party?

	22-01-2004 20:52									#40
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If they are democratic they can't be left wing, as you pointed out yourself.

	22-01-2004 20:52									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor That's because the Dums are a center-right elitist party. Unlike the Repugs, who are far right and are more inclined to find legitimacy in a mob they carefully manipulate

Spiffor. Dem Dums are elitist. Very much so. They **** back their heads and look down their pointy noses at the common folk and say, "Legislation is too important and complex to be put into the hands of average person."

	22-01-2004 20:54									#42
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Yes. What's wrong with that?

You wouldn't let an average man on the street operate on your brain tumour, why let one run your country?

	22-01-2004 20:56									#43
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I don't know for Britain, but in France, Le Pen is appreciated by about 25% of people and utterly loathed by the remaining 75%.
Most French right-wingers outright reject to work with Le Pen, and those who do suffer from a very bad reputation among the reight-wing voters.

That must mean right-wing people are fundamentally antidemocratic

	22-01-2004 20:56									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Park Avenue But denouncing the decisions of a relative majority when they decide for example that Le Pen is the second most-favoured politician, or when they elect Bush, is what seems left-wingers like to do.

Denouncing the decisions is rare, IMHO. I was scared about Le Pen's support, but I wouldn't denounce the people's decision. I would ask why though, and realise that immigration needed to take a higher priority.

And I have seen right wingers refuse to work with left-wingers. Blair kicking Livingstone out of the Labour Party, when it was clear who the public wanted. Declaring you won't work with someone is not a rash act. There are people I wouldn't work with, whether they were elected or not.

	22-01-2004 20:57									#45
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quote: Originally posted by MikeH Yes. What's wrong with that? You wouldn't let an average man on the street operate on your brain tumour, why let one run your country?

Well put

	22-01-2004 20:57									#46
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quote: Originally posted by MikeH Opposing referendum is a fair comment but "opposes initiative" is meaningless.

MikeH, just so you understand, "initiative" is the process whereby the people may place a referendum on the ballot themselves by gathering a prescribed number of votes on petitions.

This process is renown in Kalifornia, and was most recently used to remove an arrogant, lying, cheating and stealing Democrat governor to be replaced by the far-right Austrian known as the Terminator.

	22-01-2004 21:00									#47
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Ah, that's a US thing then, we don't have that here. I absolutely oppose that, what a silly idea!

Yes... KKKalifornia.

	22-01-2004 21:00									#48
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quote: Blair kicking Livingstone out of the Labour Party, when it was clear who the public wanted

Ahem, there was another reason, wasn't there.

"You wouldn't let an average man on the street operate on your brain tumour, why let one run your country? "

I'm wondering what exactly your political philosophy is these days Mike..?

	22-01-2004 21:00									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Spiffor. Dem Dums are elitist.

I believe you, and I actually like to describe myself as a "populist in the rightful meaning", i.e. as a person who thinks we should strongly trust the voters and accepts their decisions. For example, as anti-death penalty as I am, I think it should be reestablished if a popular majority wants it in a referendum.

quote: Very much so. They **** back their heads and look down their pointy noses at the common folk and say, "Legislation is too important and complex to be put into the hands of average person."

This is a dirty behaviour that is way too common in politics. Politicians either ignore the "rabble", or manipulate it. Dums are very good at the first, and Repugs have done a great job in the second category this term.

	22-01-2004 21:00									#50
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MikeH, you represent the views of the average Democrat in the United States. Government is just too important to be left to the people.

	22-01-2004 21:03									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Park Avenue But denouncing the decisions of a relative majority when ..... they elect Bush, is what seems left-wingers like to do.

Majority relative to what? Must you be reminded that the popular majority voted for Al Gore???

Candidate (Party Label) Popular Vote Total Percent of Popular Vote

Al Gore (Democrat) 50,999,897 48.38

George W. Bush (Republican) 50,456,002 47.87

Is the Electoral College the "relative majority"?

	22-01-2004 21:13									#52
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1. 80% of people are idiots who care more about football and Big Brother than how whoever runs their country will affect them.

2. Politicians (of all parties) are self serving liars cheats and con men and the only reason any of them ever get elected is because of point 1.

3. In general stuff that fvcks up rich people and helps poor people doesn't make me angry so it's good.

4. Being free to act, look, worship, get high, fornicate, however you want is absolutely fine as long as you aren't hurting someone else physically or mentally.

5. If in doubt about a certain issue argue against whatever Park Avenue thinks because 99.9% of the time I agree with the people he's trying to troll.

	22-01-2004 21:17									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Ned MikeH, you represent the views of the average Democrat in the United States. Government is just too important to be left to the people.

Do they also support increasing and improving state education so that the majority of the population are educated enough to know that voting Republican is silly?

	22-01-2004 21:19									#54
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quote: Originally posted by MikeH 1. 80% of people are idiots who care more about football and Big Brother than how whoever runs their country will affect them.

quote: Originally posted by MikeH 2. Politicians (of all parties) are self serving liars cheats and con men and the only reason any of them ever get elected is because of point 1.

I wouldn't say that. I think if you scrutanise anyone as much as you scrutanise Blair, you'd find everyone tells a few lies. Sure, they all lie, so does everyone. I don't accept they do it more often.

quote: Originally posted by MikeH 4. Being free to act, look, worship, get high, fornicate, however you want is absolutely fine as long as you aren't hurting someone else physically or mentally.

quote: Originally posted by MikeH 5. If in doubt about a certain issue argue against whatever Park Avenue thinks because 99.9% of the time I agree with the people he's trying to troll.

I'd disagree with that. I think most of the time he has a point, even when he's wrong. I can understand where he's coming from, and I don't think he's trying to troll as much as people thing. A lot less than the Sun at least.

	22-01-2004 21:22									#55
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You are maybe right on #2 but mine's a safer assumption.

#5, yes, he does always have a point and he phrases it in an annoying way on purpose. Doesn't change the fact that mostly I disagree with him.

	22-01-2004 21:22									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Spiffor. Dem Dums are elitist. Very much so. They **** back their heads and look down their pointy noses at the common folk and say, "Legislation is too important and complex to be put into the hands of average person."

You should come to Florida. The Repug controled government (with the Prez' brother in charge) have refused to abide by citizen referrendums, are now planning on overturning them, and are planning to pass restrictions on us so we can't tell them what to do anymore.

	22-01-2004 21:23									#57
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quote: Originally posted by MikeH #5, yes, he does always have a point and he phrases it in an annoying way on purpose. Doesn't change the fact that mostly I disagree with him.

True

	22-01-2004 21:24									#58
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MikeH, I think you now have a clue as to why the Dems oppose initiative and referendum. The people are constantly electing Republicans which only PROVES how stupid they are and how they cannot be trusted with the reigns of government.

	22-01-2004 21:25									#59
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara You should come to Florida. The Repug controled government (with the Prez' brother in charge) have refused to abide by citizen referrendums, are now planning on overturning them, and are planning to pass restrictions on us so we can't tell them what to do anymore.

Details. Links.

	22-01-2004 21:27									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Ned MikeH, I think you now have a clue as to why the Dems oppose initiative and referendum. The people are constantly electing Republicans which only PROVES how stupid they are and how they cannot be trusted with the reigns of government.

Yep! And I'm glad you agree that voting Republican is more stupid than voting Democrat.