23-01-2004 04:44									#121
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No, it's true. I hate America. And it's little dog Toto, too.

	23-01-2004 05:05									#122
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PA, the lefts you've seen at this thread that say the public is stupid are not, AFAI can tell, at all the representative of most of the left. I am one of those who believe the masses that are more interested in "football and Big Brother" (the TV show, right? ) can indeed run a nation--because it is their nation. If they **** it up, so what? It's their nation, they ran it, it's their chance to make it great or turn it into a shithole. The best leader of a nation is its people, because that means the nation is self-governed, its path is self-determined, and it is not controlled by one or so many elite that forced their way into power. IOW, the collective nation runs the collective nation: the nation is "free".

PA, your 3rd point is horse ****. Democracy is ultimately only "tyranny of the majority" if it doesn't give everyone equal freedoms. Do you know what? 150 years ago, most people didn't support abolishing slavery. Does that mean we should've kept the slaves? Eh?

	23-01-2004 06:05									#123
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Well, Che, it does appear that the fascist, reactionary running-dog Republicans of Florida are trying to thwart the declared will of the people in connection with the cited two referendums. It now appears that the time is ripe for a people's revolution in Florida - either that or a recall like we had here in Kalifornia when the anti-democracy Democrat Governor went against the people.

	23-01-2004 08:27									#124
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If Gore won the electoral college but lost the popular vote, does anyone doubt the Deomcrats would ignore who got the most votes?

	23-01-2004 08:37									#125
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quote: If Gore won the electoral college but lost the popular vote, does anyone doubt the Deomcrats would ignore who got the most votes?

If Bush won the popular vote, I would want him in office. Anything else would be pushing an unelected goon on the nation, one they did not choose.

Now, on the other hand, Bush got to play the role of the unelected goon, because the nation was smart enough to pick Gore.

	23-01-2004 08:47									#126
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quote: Originally posted by mrmitchell PA, the lefts you've seen at this thread that say the public is stupid are not, AFAI can tell, at all the representative of most of the left.

thank you

	23-01-2004 10:11									#127
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quote: Originally posted by mrmitchell PA, the lefts you've seen at this thread that say the public is stupid are not, AFAI can tell, at all the representative of most of the left.

I think they are just counter-trolling.

	23-01-2004 11:28									#128
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I'd just like to point out that it's the libertarians who don't believe in democracy, not the liberals.

	23-01-2004 14:42									#129
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I never correlated Bush-dislike with America-hatred, did I? Of course MrFun and Chegitz dislike America and the success it has made of capitalism, they can't state as such of course, so they proxy their dislike in criticism of its actions wrt "war" (ie, freeing a nation), "globalisation" (ie, contributing to free trade and spread of culture) and other things. Keep your eyes open and you'll see it.

	23-01-2004 14:46									#130
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PA completely betrays his ridculuos assertion with a comment on how badly the BNP are treated. They are not democratic and are a facist racist bunch of thugs.

I'm no "lefty" however i am confident that the vast majority would rather see a deomcratic right wing govt rather than an unelected left wing one.

	23-01-2004 15:18									#131
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quote: the vast majority would rather see a deomcratic right wing govt, (ie Bush), rather than an unelected left wing one, (ie Howard Dean).

Do the left-wing Americans here feel this way?

Really?

	23-01-2004 15:26									#132
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quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy Finally!! Drogue has had a thread deleted, and done something to irritate the mods!! .

Nope, MikeH had a thread deleted, that I was trying to bring semi-on topic, and was also the only person to vote against said painful injury

quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy You're a good government. You have good, sensible, logical policies that will lead to peace, prosperity and longevity. Do you work with a group that has policies that can only be described as idiotic? HELL NO!! Now that my friend, is pragmatism.

Yay pragmatism!

	23-01-2004 15:30									#133
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By the way, if Apolyton was a proper democracy where people could propose ideas for the mob to vote on Park Avenue's balls being smashed in a door was voted for by 12 people and only one against.

	23-01-2004 15:32									#134
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I expect PA to follow the majority rule and slam his uncovered genitals repeatedly in a door then. I sure hope he'll send us the pics

	23-01-2004 15:34									#135
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OK, but can we have a poll on whether I get to donate sperm first.

	23-01-2004 15:35									#136
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The answer to that poll will be a resounding "**** no!"

Trust me on this. I've done extensive polling on the matter.

	23-01-2004 15:36									#137
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I need to witness it.

	23-01-2004 15:37									#138
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quote: Nope, MikeH had a thread deleted, that I was trying to bring semi-on topic, and was also the only person to vote against said painful injury

I missed the poll? ****!

	23-01-2004 15:37									#139
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger I think they are just counter-trolling.

I was.

	23-01-2004 15:38									#140
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Park Avenue:
Please create the thread, I'd gladly vote in it and participate to 'Poly democracy

	23-01-2004 15:38									#141
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Well, it's 1-0 for "**** no!" as it stands right now. Though I suppose you'd make it 1-1.

	23-01-2004 15:43									#142
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"Park Avenue:
Please create the thread, I'd gladly vote in it and participate to 'Poly democracy"

I already have two threads planned for today.

	23-01-2004 15:44									#143
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I would start it but I expect it'll get deleted again.

	23-01-2004 21:47									#144
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quote: I'd just like to point out that it's the libertarians who don't believe in democracy, not the liberals.

A good point. It is the libertarians and the pacifists here. to you all! The liberals, in the socialist sense of the word, should be indifferent to democracy, or for it (a little). Needless to say, one can mix and match ideas, so don't think I'm speaking in anything but the most general terms. However, I define liberal as libertarian, look at the words, as opposed to economic definitions that only really fits with marxist/anti marxist, and I'm a non-marxist liberal.

	23-01-2004 22:06									#145
	Put an end to popups!

I'm all for making the spink meister infertile

	23-01-2004 22:06									#146
	Put an end to popups!

Whaleboy, you are a person whose politics and philosophy are tied to an emotional position, the hatred of war. Being emotionally based, your philosophy cannot be solely based on logic and in the end is illogical.

A democrat is a person who believes that people know best their self interest and can be trusted with the ultimate control of government. This is a logical philosophy that stems from a logical premise.

A person who is wedded to an emotionally based philosophy cannot trust the government to the people because they may vote in a way contrary to the core philosophy. You, Whaleboy, are one of these crippled, illogical people who oppose democracy.

	23-01-2004 22:15									#147
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The Left, ie. the Third estate, is certainly pro-democracy. The first and second estates are the ones who have a problem with it.

	23-01-2004 22:40									#148
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Ned:

Whaleboy has an emotional point of view, which is completely fine, and which makes him similar to any other voter. That doesn't mean he is bound to be illogical, if he thinks he should have no say in how his country and his life gets directed

(I actually agree with you, but the word "illogical" struck me as incorrect)

Gepap:
The third Estate was mostly comprised of bourgeois who simply wanted to down the aristocracy to get to power themselves. True, they were more open to progressive ideas than the other two, but very few of them would qualify as "the left" by today's standard. Worse, the first of modern communists, Gracchus Baboeuf, was beheaded by these nice lefties

	23-01-2004 22:44									#149
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Gepap: The third Estate was mostly comprised of bourgeois who simply wanted to down the aristocracy to get to power themselves. True, they were more open to progressive ideas than the other two, but very few of them would qualify as "the left" by today's standard. Worse, the first of modern communists, Gracchus Baboeuf, was beheaded by these nice lefties

Well, screw today's standards. No better way to mess with the right than to screw up thier language.

	23-01-2004 22:45									#150
	Put an end to popups!

Spiffor, a democrat of course would allow even the Whaleboys of the world to vote. It is the Whaleboys who would deny others the right to vote.