25-01-2004 01:18									#1
	Espionage--worthless? Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Just out of curiosity--how much use have more experienced played made of the espionage system. It just seems too expensive and random to have any significant place in a viable strategy. Just planting a spy alone is a dicey situation.

	25-01-2004 01:53									#2
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In a word No.

	25-01-2004 03:02									#3
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The only time I ever use it is to provoke someone into declaring war against me. Usually (99% of the time) I just attack 'em, though. Sometimes its just more satisfying to get them good and angry first.

jon.

	25-01-2004 03:09									#4
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I usually have better use for my gil.

	25-01-2004 03:36									#5
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i sue it, but then again i use everything in the game to get the whole sensation, no point just using one tactic all the time, more fun experimenting

	25-01-2004 03:39									#6
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It's worth it alone to see exactly how many of each type of unit the opponent has in the military adviser screen.

I feel justified in saving and reloading if planting a spy doesn't work because I also think that espionage in this game is pretty much a shoddy afterthought. In Civ2, I used espionage all the time because you could plant nukes and poison water supplies! And if you were a fundamentalist, civs weren't allowed to declare war on you because terrorism was expected of such extreme regimes.

Ah, the good old days of Civ2.

	25-01-2004 03:42									#7
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I do use espionage to plant spies...but I agree - the espionage portion of Civ3 needs work.

	25-01-2004 03:45									#8
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quote: Originally posted by David Murray It's worth it alone to see exactly how many of each type of unit the opponent has in the military adviser screen. I feel justified in saving and reloading if planting a spy doesn't work because I also think that espionage in this game is pretty much a shoddy afterthought. In Civ2, I used espionage all the time because you could plant nukes and poison water supplies! And if you were a fundamentalist, civs weren't allowed to declare war on you because terrorism was expected of such extreme regimes. Ah, the good old days of Civ2.

CHEAT

	25-01-2004 04:20									#9
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I will sometimes cheat the same way. Depends if I'm (mentally) ready for war or not.

To see where all their military units are for a turn (Steal Plans) is really cool. Of course, anytime you use your spy for other than Investigate City (and I do not know what else), there is risk of it being lost.

The more expensive spy missions are risky. If I am not far ahead, then I don't risk them; if I AM far ahead, I have no need for them.

	25-01-2004 04:39									#10
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I only use it for investigating cities to check up on the wonder building of my rivals...

but for stealing techs and suck, nope never even tried it

	25-01-2004 04:50									#11
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I concur. The only thing I do with my planted spies is investigate cities (mainly the wonder-building ones). Everything else that the spy "could" do is just way too expensive for my taste - especially if you spend the exorbinant amount of gold only to find out that your spy was caught, your gold wasted, and now you're at war - in which case the thousands of gold you just spent to basically get your spy killed and started a war over could have been better spent on the war effort that your spy triggered in the first place!

	25-01-2004 06:30									#12
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plant spies to see how many/type unit

occassionaly check out cities (quite often to see how close to a wonder)

may steal a tech if behind mid game (very rare)

every blue moon steal the military plans

	25-01-2004 07:10									#13
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Investigating cities during war to inspect defenders and defensive improvements can ensure your not being upset as you make an assault on a city.

	25-01-2004 10:00									#14
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the most used espionage info i use is the military advisor to check how many units the AI has. after that comes investigate city and steal tech. steal tech is risky and expensive business though

	25-01-2004 10:17									#15
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quote: Originally posted by David Murray It's worth it alone to see exactly how many of each type of unit the opponent has in the military adviser screen.

My thoughts exactly.

I rarely use the espionage missions though (mostly examine city to check progress on a wonder, rarely steal plans if I have lots of cash and feel like seeing what the AI is up to).

	25-01-2004 19:18									#16
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Seeing enemy unit composition is the only thing I use espionage for.

	26-01-2004 00:35									#17
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Steal enemy battle plan is worth every penny.

Investigate city. Success rate is zillion times better than battle plan and each cheaper. Best before attacking city.

Steal tech is not worth it, since you can trade legitimately for much better price. Only reason I see is if you dont wanna give something to teh civ.

Sabotage/initiate propaganda etc is not worth it.

	26-01-2004 02:55									#18
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Civ 3 espionage still is screwed somewhat. Planting a spy is always worth it just for the military info. Stealing tech or propaganda are very rarely worth it. I've stolen tech a few times, but that's rare and risky. I'd rather put the money into my own research. Also, the risk of being caught and thus spending 2000 gold for putting myself at war... bah.

	26-01-2004 15:14									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Zero Sabotage/initiate propaganda etc is not worth it.

never got that to work... has anyone had success

	26-01-2004 22:28									#20
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With a Spy you can see what types of Units a rival civ has. Stealing Plans (if successful), although somewhat expensive, can tell you where each unit is on the map. I've used that a few times to locate that lone Transport w/ some Units in it. Generally I don't bother.

You don't need a spy to Investigate a city, your Ambasador can do that job for you w/o the chance/expense of planting a Spy. I generally just rely on my Diplomats in the Embassies. They're much cheaper and don't cause resentment upon failure--they don't fail.

Embassies are VERY useful, Spys can be useful, but risky.

I generally build the Intelligence Agency when I get the tech, but more for the Cultural Value than the Espionage value. (and it's only 1 Culture point).

Steven

	26-01-2004 23:44									#21
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quote: You don't need a spy to Investigate a city, your Ambasador can do that job for you ...

The point is: Your ambassador canNOT do that for you if you are at war.

	27-01-2004 02:15									#22
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I almost never use espionage, but on occasions it was very useful.

1. My main opponent was building the Manhattan Project and I wanted to delay ICBM builing by everyone until I acquired uranium also. I waited ten turns and then sent a spy in to sabotage the MHP. For about 500 Gold, I was able to delay the MHP until I had the uranium I needed.

2. I was behind in the technology race and no one would trade with me. I used several spies to acquire the needed technologies to jumpstart my military campaign.

	27-01-2004 04:33									#23
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I've only used it to plant spies so I can see how much of each unit the computer players have. All other forms of espionage are huge wastes of money, which you never have enough of. Unlike the computer players who have thousands even when they upgrade all their units, etc.

I desperately miss the diplomat and spy units of Civ 2. They made the game so much fun. It's to the point now where I can never compete with the computer for technology, especially with the new science heros in Conquests. All that has added to the game is the computer getting tech even faster than before. To the point that when I finally crawl and grope my way into the industrial age (steam power, nationalism, etc) the computer players are already done with it.

	27-01-2004 05:50									#24
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I've only used it to plant spies so I can see how much of each unit the computer players have. All other forms of espionage are huge wastes of money, which you never have enough of. Unlike the computer players who have thousands even when they upgrade all their units, etc.

I desperately miss the diplomat and spy units of Civ 2. They made the game so much fun. It's to the point now where I can never compete with the computer for technology, especially with the new science heros in Conquests. All that has added to the game is the computer getting tech even faster than before. To the point that when I finally crawl and grope my way into the industrial age (steam power, nationalism, etc) the computer players are already done with it.

	27-01-2004 08:25									#25
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I don't investigate all that often, actually, because I usually have enough arty and bomber to make sure there aren't any units in enemy cities for my ground troops to fight

	27-01-2004 08:53									#26
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Most of the time I just plant a spy to se the troop counts.

	27-01-2004 17:19									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Zero Steal tech is not worth it, since you can trade legitimately for much better price. Only reason I see is if you dont wanna give something to teh civ.

Exempt in late industrial and modern age when you can steal a tech for a cheaper price compared to buying (even with safe settings).

	27-01-2004 18:49									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Rasputin never got that to work... has anyone had success

I have gotten Propoganda to work many times. The main reason to conduct a Propoganda mission is if you need a toe hold onto another continent, or to get an important luxury or resource (possible but only in limited circumstances)

There are severe restrictions to propoganda missions. The first (and most obvious) is that Democracies are immune to them. The second is that the sucess rate is largely dependent on the culture value of the target city (over 100 is unlikely and over 500 is next to impossible) Repeated attempts raise your odds slightly (just an observation, not based on statistical analysis) propoganda missions are most successful against isolated cities containing valuable real estate or resources from a Civ with vastly inferior culture (they should be in awe of your civ)

	28-01-2004 20:40									#29
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In my opinion, the cost of espionage is right, the problem is the odds of failure are too high. Propaganda is useful, as well as Investigate City relating to wonders. But by far the best use of all is the military infromation you get in the Military Advisor screen.

	29-01-2004 04:53									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Johann Moritz In my opinion, the cost of espionage is right, the problem is the odds of failure are too high.

Especially for simple things like planting a spy.