05-02-2004 10:36									#181
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WhiteBandit pretty much just nailed what happened. 12 turns sounds about right... I remember that we had been suspicious of GoW's intentions before that, but it was the experience of being in chat with GoW and their insane demands for Chivalry that convinced us the attack was coming almost for sure in the very near future.

When no-one else would offer us the tech and everyone else already had it, that sealed the deal.

	05-02-2004 10:40									#182
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quote: Originally posted by Arnelos WhiteBandit pretty much just nailed what happened. 12 turns sounds about right... I remember that we had been suspicious of GoW's intentions before that, but it was the experience of being in chat with GoW and their insane demands for Chivalry that convinced us the attack was coming almost for sure in the very near future. When no-one else would offer us the tech and everyone else already had it, that sealed the deal.

Ahem...Vox didn't have the tech so we couldn't have offered it at all.

	05-02-2004 13:03									#183
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We had decided we were going to attack RP WAY back to just after the Move Warrior/Writing debackle. A formal agreement with ND came a few turns after that. Preparations for the comming war slowly formed from that point on. A general course of action was discussed until a few turns before each of us got Chivalry. At this point, actual battle plans started to be drawn up. Not that it did us any good. How does the saying go? "Plans never survive the first encounter with the enemy." We declare war at the same time as ND. RP gifts cities to GS and 90% of our battleplans were thrown out the window. GF started marching us into RP territory and slowly went mad. Aggie took over and improvised EXTREMELY well.

	05-02-2004 13:38									#184
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quote: Originally posted by Arnelos WhiteBandit pretty much just nailed what happened. 12 turns sounds about right... I remember that we had been suspicious of GoW's intentions before that, but it was the experience of being in chat with GoW and their insane demands for Chivalry that convinced us the attack was coming almost for sure in the very near future. When no-one else would offer us the tech and everyone else already had it, that sealed the deal.

you mean that chat where I roleplayed a sleazy Arab trader?

	05-02-2004 16:13									#185
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quote: Originally posted by Arnelos WhiteBandit pretty much just nailed what happened. 12 turns sounds about right... I remember that we had been suspicious of GoW's intentions before that, but it was the experience of being in chat with GoW and their insane demands for Chivalry that convinced us the attack was coming almost for sure in the very near future.

If you are talking about serious war plans, then it all started around the time we got the NAP from GS.

In fact, everything was hanging on that NAP. If we didnt get it, we would of had to leave a bunch of riders home in case GS invaded.

As soon as GS gave us the NAP, we were free to make plans, and leave our home territory virtually defenseless.



We always held a grudge against RP since the exploring warrior fiasco. But serious planning happened when we got the NAP.

	05-02-2004 19:20									#186
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quote: Originally posted by donegeal We had decided we were going to attack RP WAY back to just after the Move Warrior/Writing debackle. A formal agreement with ND came a few turns after that. Preparations for the comming war slowly formed from that point on. A general course of action was discussed until a few turns before each of us got Chivalry. At this point, actual battle plans started to be drawn up. Not that it did us any good. How does the saying go? "Plans never survive the first encounter with the enemy." We declare war at the same time as ND. RP gifts cities to GS and 90% of our battleplans were thrown out the window. GF started marching us into RP territory and slowly went mad. Aggie took over and improvised EXTREMELY well.

"We" only refers to certain members. I was constantly stressing that Roleplay could and should be our greatest ally in the game and that we should commit to an alliance to the end of the game with them.

The Writing/Warrior fiasco destroyed all credibility I had with the team and pretty much all DemoGames from here on to forever. I'll never hold another elected position again.

And that played into my own opinions. After feeling so betrayed by Roleplay I joined the ranks of anti-Roleplay members of our team and fought to see them destroyed.

This also helped feed ND's distrust of Roleplay because Borc seemed to have similiar feelings towards Roleplay.

	05-02-2004 21:41									#187
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For the newer players, could someone give some details of the incident? I keep reading about it, but do not know what it was about.

	05-02-2004 22:47									#188
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I don't completely know either, and I've been here from the start.

Basically, though, GF was our leader at the time.

We had an exploring warrior down around RP, and they told us they didn't want it south of X tile. Our position was if it wasn't settled it was free roaming, to which RP refused to trade techs with us until we moved said warrior. This turned into a big argument between Togas and GF. I think both were nearly removed over it, frankly.

I think what pushed some of us over the edge, or rather me personally is when some members of RP went outside of this forum/game and started bragging at how good they were at delaying our exploration through such means in the ISDG.

	05-02-2004 22:58									#189
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quote: Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx Our position was if it wasn't settled it was free roaming ..

An understandable policy. Does it still apply to Bob?

	05-02-2004 23:57									#191
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quote: Originally posted by Cort Haus An understandable policy. Does it still apply to Bob?

Oh, do you want to land a warrior and explore the unsettled territory of Bob? I'm sure arrangements can be made to do that...

	06-02-2004 00:04									#192
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I was one of the few on GOW that wanted to give RP chiv. Mainly because i feared not giving it to them would basically tell them "here we come". Additionally I wanted to use any money gained for more riders.

Aggie

	06-02-2004 01:26									#193
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I actually think I agreed with you on that one. Simply because I wanted to fleece Roleplay for every dime we could before we gutted them for dog meat.

Oh well, have a nice day.

	06-02-2004 01:27									#194
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Wow, what an interesting strategy. I wonder if giving them chivalry would have left them completely in the dark and unprepared for an assault, or would it have made the battle much, much more difficult for ND/GoW with both sides footing horses.

My guess is that while not getting chivalry might have made the war less suspected, somehow I think they still would not have been totally surprised by the war, and having knights would have made the war more difficult.

	06-02-2004 01:28									#195
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It might have been even better for you if you had done that, Aggie, considering RP had only a couple of horsemen (2? 3? 4? Surely not 5) by the time war broke out.

-Arrian

	06-02-2004 01:44									#196
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At the time I believe I argued that if we sold them Chivalry they wouldn't have enough money to upgrade horsemen.

They would be able to build Knights but the minute war broke out they would most likely sell the farm to get Chivalry from someone else anyway or simply concentrate on cheaper Medieval Infantry and Pikemen.

	06-02-2004 01:59									#197
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I agree, the whole reason why we were suspicious in the first place was the way that every Civ acted towards us in regards to giving us Chiv. (Except Vox, you bunch of losers! ).

We thought we had fairly decent relations with GoW and starting to mend fences, then MZ blocked us cold. Ultimately, giving us Chiv would have still resulted in our defeat. However, instead of being caught with our pants down (in regards to our production capabilities), if you had given us Chiv, it would be like catching us completely naked... with MZ's sister!*

Bottomline: Had we received Chiv from GoW, we probably wouldn't have suspected a thing until we saw Riders/Ansars in our territory.

*Note: I don't think MZ even has a sister! But for the sake of conversation, my point stands!

	06-02-2004 02:24									#198
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Well it seems that all choices have ramifications, so it is hard to know which is the better one, until after you had to make it.

Now at least I got the picture.

	06-02-2004 02:47									#199
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quote: Now at least I got the picture.

I hope what you were picturing wasn't

quote: like catching us completely naked... with MZ's sister!*

because that's just wrong

	06-02-2004 07:09									#200
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hey, stop trash talking about my imaginary fictitious unreal hypothetical sister!!!

	06-02-2004 07:42									#201
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quote: Originally posted by WhiteBandit We thought we had fairly decent relations with GoW and starting to mend fences, then MZ blocked us cold. Ultimately, giving us Chiv would have still resulted in our defeat. However, instead of being caught with our pants down (in regards to our production capabilities), if you had given us Chiv, it would be like catching us completely naked... with MZ's sister!* Bottomline: Had we received Chiv from GoW, we probably wouldn't have suspected a thing until we saw Riders/Ansars in our territory.

Yes! That is EXACTLY what I argued and they told me there was no way that could happen.

You just validated my arguments for me! I love you WhiteBandit!

	06-02-2004 07:55									#202
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How the hell did we decide to not give it to them, I was for selling it as well..?

IIRC it was ND objecting profusely - to the point of believing such an act to amount to an act of war - to the idea that made us decide not to...???

Little fuzzy during that time, was too busy attempting to convince GS that just because we were at war with them (during Vox) we weren't really at war with them... While dropping hints hoping they would think RP had hired us to do so...

Last edited by UnOrthOdOx on 06-02-2004 at 08:01

	06-02-2004 08:37									#203
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Hey, guys, that's alright. The cigars over here are better than they were on Bob anyway. We're having the time of our lives. Not so with you poor chaps. No, you're still sliding around in the mud and listening to Eric Idle cart a lot of dead people through your village every morning and that sort of thing. Over here in New Spain, we're puffing at cigars, having big dinner parties, getting drunk, and producing children like crazy. We even wear straw hats and shorts. Ah, this is the life.

(Pass me another one of those Squidling Ales, honey.)

The New Lord Calamari...but you can call me Phil.

	06-02-2004 08:41									#204
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RP saw those Riders pretty quickly, you had a horseman scout around Mavdad which saw our stack as soon it appeared on the mountains.

I don't recall who in GoW was actually in favor of the selling of Chivalry but I know I was very much against it, so was Panzer IIRC and so was ND.

	06-02-2004 08:51									#205
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Oh, I remembered MZ and Panzer were against it. I just didn't want to name names.

	06-02-2004 09:35									#206
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I too was against it.

1. We had already soured relations with another team (Vox) when we sold Fuedalsim to their opponent (GS). I didnt want to do it to ND as well.

2. We didnt know how many horses RP had. (We were told they didnt have many, but I didnt want to risk it)

3. I didnt want to upset ND

4. I believed RP already knew that they were in danger of an attack by GoW, and would build knights.

5. I didnt want to upset ND

	08-02-2004 05:55									#207
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I looked back recently and for the record, I made the first troops build schedule and broad plan of war in 290 BC. The planning had been going on before that so lets say around 410 BC was the point of no return toward war.

Aggie

	08-02-2004 21:04									#208
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quote: Originally posted by GhengisFarb Oh, I remembered MZ and Panzer were against it. I just didn't want to name names.

	09-02-2004 00:02									#209
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quote: Originally posted by Panzer32

What are you ranting about? I didn't say Panzer who. It could've been someone named Panzer21 for all they knew.

	09-02-2004 00:41									#210
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Now children lets bring this arguement back into our private forum. We don't want everybody to know how totally dysfunctional we are, so far its been our dirty little secret. :wink:.

Aggie