09-02-2004 01:19									#211
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Silly Canadians.

	09-02-2004 03:18									#212
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quote: Originally posted by Aggie Now children lets bring this arguement back into our private forum. We don't want everybody to know how totally dysfunctional we are, so far its been our dirty little secret. :wink:. Aggie

Not much of a secret, Aggie!!

After being tied up with RL for the last month, I am pretty much caught up on what's been going on around here... great thread and great attitude by all, btw. Truly fascinating stuff.

A little reminder, though, folks:

It ain't over till the [bearded] fat lady sings!

	09-02-2004 04:17									#213
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus It ain't over till the [bearded] fat lady sings!

I didn't know the Queen of GoW had a role in deciding when the game was over...?

	09-02-2004 06:29									#214
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quote: Originally posted by Aggie I have 3 questions for RP. 2. What was the purpose of you large move of troops later on toward "The Alamo"? Was it to tie our forces into a defense of this town or was it a true offesnive threat. Aggie

quote: Originally posted by Arnelos When forces from within Pamplana finally DID head out into the field near Salamanca (by then called "The Alamo"), it was under orders from BigFree. That was the turn that GoW insisted on replaying because of some bug. What happened with that turn was that BigFree sent out a good portion of our army, against what Togas had written in the orders thread to do, and it REALLY pissed me off... When we got the turn back to be replayed, I insisted on following Togas' original orders to keep the troops INSIDE the city (rather than when he'd acquiesed to BigFree's moves when we'd been sitting on the save for more than 24 hours the first time and just sent what BigFree had done without changing it), but was overruled by Trip, who told me we had to do the same thing as before.

quote: Originally posted by Togas Attempted to do the save in a brief chat today with BigFree, Arnelos, and History Guy but did not finish before my lunch break was up. BigFree is to play the save after talking to GS (AsleepAtTheWheel was online). BF, please post results in this thread. --TOgas

Arnelos, please get your facts straight. I did not play the turn without regard to orders. There were no orders at all. It wasn't until a chat I had with AsleepAtTheWheel that action was taken. Togas had given me permission, in chat, to play the turn after I had counsel with him. This is not the first time you have attacked my character; please refrain from doing it in the future or I will find out where you live.

The plan for the first units to move out of Pamplona and towards Salmanca was approved and put into action by Togas himself. Aidun and Nuclear Winter were also onboard for this plan as well.

quote: Originally posted by Togas Results from 250ad GS gives us World Map We send them our WM With ND pulling forces back and GoW sending out scouts, I decided to send out a scout group of our own. Our three brave "volunteers" have headed out of Pamplona to spy on enemy movements, engage them on high ground and attemp to cut their road to deny them of luxuries. military: Mariner Pikes S, FORT Isabella SW, SW, S Pike Scout Team: Davout, Aidun, BigFree (all regular pikes) move SW, W onto mountain. workers: GT & NW ROAD --Togas

I should really answer Aggie's question, since you really did not know why I did what I did. The 'big' moves out of Pamplona was an idea that built uopon the past movements. Aggie, the plan was the RP wanted to tie up GoW's and ND's units to give GS more time and flexibility with their own. I wanted to build a road to the Mountains North of Salmanca/Alamo in order to station the Catapults there along with a sizeable defensive force. But, GoW 'interupted' those plans. We were desperate. I knew we were on the losing end unless we got lucky and made some daring unexpected moves.

Here's some pics of the 'before' turn and 'after'

quote: Originally posted by Aggie 3. Did we get a GL in Pamploma forest when you destroyed our forces there, is that the reason you use pike or did you simply want to make a point that you still bite. This was in my opinion a move a agonized over at the time(and to some degree still regret), but in the end decided I would rather have you attacking than fortified in Pamploma. Aggie

quote: Originally posted by Arnelos Ultimately, because GoW pounced on the retreat of part of that force back to Pamplona, I was able to kill a number of GoW Riders when I played the next turn and BigFree can claim credit for that setup. That said, I would have VERY VERY VERY STRONGLY preferred that we had kept all of those pikemen and medieval infantry INSIDE PAMPLONA, making the eventual force GoW and/or ND would need to take the city significantly larger. We must have lost some 8-10 units in that operation just take down a few GoW riders. Sending out pikemen into the mountains off the road network where they couldn't get back to Pamplona in one turn was idiotic, in my opinion. BigFree's rationale, as I recall, was that it was supposed to be a manuever to encourage GoW to keep more riders in the south, making the GS invasion of the northeast more likely to do some damage. I remember that GS was skeptical that this would work that way and I remember that I was highly against moving 1-move units off the roadnetwork out of Pamplona REGARDLESS of what it might gain elsewhere. No, you did not get a GL. I think I've explained that one above. BigFree moved our troops out of his own accord, Togas just accepted what BigFree had done and sent it on without changing it because we'd sat on the save for more than 24 hours (Togas had been on vacation or something and came back angry because no-one had actually SENT the turn out). When I discovered what had been done, I was incensed! Togas and I had just discussed the very turn before how unwise we thought it was to move so many 1-move units off the road network and I'd managed to convince him we shouldn't do it. That was in Togas' orders. So when we got the turn back AGAIN after you guys wanted a replay to avoid some bug, I wanted to keep our troops home. It was Trip that wouldn't let me do it.

Again, Arnelos, you are wrong. I won't bother hunting for the evidience to prove I acted on either orders from Togas or was given leeway to do so by the team and/or Togas.

Aggie, to answer your question...

By the time we used all of our offensive units on your stack outside Pamplona you had two 1/5 Rider's left in it. I decided, along with another RP'er in chat (I forget who), to attack it with a Pikes. The first Pike we tried won. The second was lost. The third was promoted. I considered it pretty even odds on the attack but, besides that, the cost of the Pike(s) as compared to the cost of the Rider(s), and an Elite ones at that, was of greater consideration. Plus the fact that Cats could be captured.

Here's a copy of the before and after shots and the action taken for that turn that Arnelos' questioned.

quote: Originally posted by Arnelos TURN WILL BE PLAYED MONDAY AT MIDDAY EASTERN TIME (morning Pacific, evening in Europe). Get your words in about it before then or show up in chat. As for what happened, I hate being right when I've been a pessimist, but here ya go:

Inquisition of the Faithful (4/4 MI), missed by catapult, knocks 5/5 Rider down to 1/5 and dies
The Templars (4/4 MI) hit by catapult and knocks 4/4 Rider down to 3/4 and dies
The Martyrs (4/4 MI), hit by catapult, kills 4/4 Rider, knocked down to 2/4
Brotherhood of the Sacred Cup (4/4 MI), hit by catapult, kills 4/4 Rider, knocked down to 2/4
Gods Wrath (4/4 MI) kills 4/4 Rider, no damage
Paladins of Holy Grace (4/4 Knight) kills 4/5 Rider, down to 2/4, promoted to 3/5
Paladins of the ??? (4/4 Knight) knocks 4/5 Rider down to 1/5, dies
Paladins of the Holy Cross (4/4 Knight) knock 4/5 rider down to 2/5, dies
The Knights Templar (4/4 Knight) kills 4/5 Rider, down to 2/4
Squires (3/3 Horse) from New Madrid kills 2/5 Rider, down to 2/3, promoted to 3/4
King's Second Guard (4/4 Pike) kills 1/5 Rider, down to 2/4
Davout's Lancers (3/3 Pike) dies against 1/5 Rider
The Swiss Guard (3/3 Pike) kills 1/5 Rider, down to 2/3, promoted to 3/4
4 captured catapults moved into Pamplona and fortified there






We lost in the attack on GoW:

1 Reg Pike
2 Vet MI's
2 Vet Knights

We killed in attack on GoW:

4 Elite Riders
4 Vet riders
4 Cats (Captured)

I hope that answer's most of your questions Aggie. I would have responded sooner to this thread but I have not visited this part of the forums in a couple of weeks.

Edit: Corrected some spelling and other small errors.

	09-02-2004 07:08									#215
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More units have died on that patch of forest than anywhere else in the game.

It should be made into a national park and a war memorial erected.

	09-02-2004 07:38									#216
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quote: Originally posted by BigFree Arnelos, please get your facts straight. I did not play the turn without regard to orders. There were no orders at all. It wasn't until a chat I had with AsleepAtTheWheel that action was taken. Togas had given me permission, in chat, to play the turn after I had counsel with him. This is not the first time you have attacked my character; please refrain from doing it in the future or I will find out where you live.

You want I should give you his address?

Just make sure he can play his PBEM turns in a rapid manner once your done.

	09-02-2004 07:47									#217
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quote: Originally posted by BigFree Arnelos, please get your facts straight. I did not play the turn without regard to orders. There were no orders at all. It wasn't until a chat I had with AsleepAtTheWheel that action was taken.

!

The one chat I bother showing up to and I get implicated in this intrateam squabble! I remember that chat, vaguely. Difficult decisions to be made. Frankly would anything have turned out differently? I doubt it.

* asleepathewheel covering his own ass

	09-02-2004 08:25									#218
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It was all asleepathewheel's fault. He told us your team wanted us to attack you in order to trigger your Golden Age.

	09-02-2004 08:32									#219
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Our downfall really started when the Goody Hut we had not popped and were saving for an emergency was loaded full of Barbarians instead of the ICBM we had thought was in there. I knew right there and then things were going to be bad for RP.

Seriously, my one of my biggest regrets was that I could not talk RP into attacking/preparing to attack ND before our REX phase. The team decided that a REX then was the best move. We should have also have tried to recruit more allies before our REX and had them locked in beforehand. Once we started on that route our fate was sealed since ND/GoW had been planning our demise for quite some time.

	09-02-2004 08:39									#220
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quote: Originally posted by GhengisFarb It was all asleepathewheel's fault. He told us your team wanted us to attack you in order to trigger your Golden Age.

I thought my plan was solid where did I go wrong?

	09-02-2004 08:44									#221
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Well its not all Roleplay's fault. Duddha was dead set on eating some team's babies and Roleplay supposedly looked mighty tasty.

	09-02-2004 10:11									#222
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quote: Originally posted by Aggie Now children lets bring this arguement back into our private forum. We don't want everybody to know how totally dysfunctional we are, so far its been our dirty little secret. :wink:. Aggie

Looking at this last page, RP seems to outdo even us in terms of dysfunctionality (and we of all teams know about dysfunctionality)

	09-02-2004 16:02									#223
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quote: Originally posted by BigFree By the time we used all of our offensive units on your stack outside Pamplona you had two 1/5 Rider's left in it. I decided, along with another RP'er in chat (I forget who), to attack it with a Pikes. The first Pike we tried won. The second was lost. The third was promoted. I considered it pretty even odds on the attack but, besides that, the cost of the Pike(s) as compared to the cost of the Rider(s), and an Elite ones at that, was of greater consideration. Plus the fact that Cats could be captured.

hahaha, yeah I was there for that too. I remember you and Arn arguing for about an hour on probability theory. You were always going to attack though as RP were just dying for some action and to get a few kills on GoW.
It was probably the best triumph for RP in the whole war, hardly a decisive battle but a good one for morale I suppose.

It was a close run thing though, after all the knights and MI's had been used and there were just a few 1 hp riders left. Then you brought the horse from NM and then finally it was 1 vet and 2 reg pikes against 2 1hp riders. The odds were in your favour for the pikes, something like 60% chance of victory for the vet pike, and if GoW were going to play it smart they'd just ping those pikes down to 1 hp in the next few turns anyway.

Certainly a good victory for RP though.

	09-02-2004 16:13									#224
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No-one's mentioned the GS naval victory over ND's expeditionary fleet. 4 yellow galleys were coming round the south coast, presumably to do some damage to our ferry system - except they never got there. We still had some catapults, which moved to the coast to ping the ND ships, which were finished off by our galleys.

	09-02-2004 17:55									#225
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Well, I for one never mentioned it as I didn't know about it. Bold move on ND part. They shoulda communicated with us better about that gambit. You mighta had a rougher time of it if there were four coming down the from the northern coast as well.
:shrug:

	09-02-2004 19:25									#226
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Oh yeah, I remember that... we had an RP galley scouting the ND fleet coming north and reporting to GS on its progress. They moved the cats into position and finished them off.

	09-02-2004 20:10									#227
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The GS fleet performed admirably in the war. They fared MUCH better than their landlubber counterparts.

IIRC, I was big on getting those cats into position to ping the ND ships. Yay! I actually did something right during the war.

-Arrian

	09-02-2004 20:23									#228
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quote: Originally posted by Cort Haus No-one's mentioned the GS naval victory over ND's expeditionary fleet. 4 yellow galleys were coming round the south coast, presumably to do some damage to our ferry system - except they never got there. We still had some catapults, which moved to the coast to ping the ND ships, which were finished off by our galleys.

Never heard a peep from ND about it. Are you sure they were Roleplay galleys painted yellow?

	10-02-2004 11:36									#229
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GS drowned our fleet.
Well... the ships were empty and never of much use anyway...

	10-02-2004 12:33									#230
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GS also sank one of our ships, the Albatross IIRC (loved that name).

We did sink an RP ship if memory serves correctly.

	10-02-2004 19:42									#231
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quote: Originally posted by Master Zen We did sink an RP ship if memory serves correctly.

I think I heard that RP ship hit a small dolphin and that's what sunk her.

	10-02-2004 20:23									#232
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Notice on BigFree's screenies how GS were camped out on what we now know is Saltpeter to the west of Barcelona.

Around that time some dysfunctionality saw us switching from Invention to Astro and back to Invention. By the time we decided to go for Gunpowder it was a few turns too late.

Guys, what would have happened if you'd opened the save to see Muskets in Pamplona?

	10-02-2004 20:46									#233
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Um... didn't we have intelligence information indicating that there was a source of saltpeter in that vicinity at that point already, Cort Haus?

I seem to recall filling you guys in about that, considering it was RP that was told about the saltpeter source while the war was still ongoing. In fact, I seem to recall even having a discussion with notyoueither about trying to secure it, assuming it was where we were told it was.

I also remember having a discussion with at least someone from GS (Arrian?) in our alliance military operations channel while doing one of the turns about how we might get it so that RP Team could get gunpowder, that source (or another source traded to us) of saltpeter, and enough money from GS to upgrade all of our pikes to muskets in Pamplona.

In fact, a good bit of the Legoland diplomacy in the back half of the war was about trying to get gunpowder and a source of saltpeter since, from what we were told, it might not be easy to link up the source that existed in southeastern Bob.

	10-02-2004 20:56									#234
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Well, Arnelos, if that's the case it's a further example of things going pear-shaped at GS. The only 'Intel' I was aware of by the time I started playing the turn was a rumour that there was none on Stormia.

We did, near the end, ask the third wheel of the tricycle if there was any SP on what we held on Bob, and we were told there wasn't, but we weren't seriously expecting them to tell us otherwise. We just wanted to see what they said a few turns ahead of finding out ourselves.

	10-02-2004 21:40									#235
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quote: Originally posted by Arnelos Um... didn't we have intelligence information indicating that there was a source of saltpeter in that vicinity at that point already, Cort Haus?

I understand this is not going to happen until the game is over... and quite likely not even then... but I'd really like to know how you got this "intel" - since the only possibility was someone from Lego, GoW, or ND to tell you (nobody else could have legally known where it was). Personally, I consider the person that disclosed that information nothing short of a traitor.

quote: Originally posted by Cort Haus We did, near the end, ask the third wheel of the tricycle if there was any SP on what we held on Bob, and we were told there wasn't, but we weren't seriously expecting them to tell us otherwise. We just wanted to see what they said a few turns ahead of finding out ourselves.

Not sure about the third wheel... , but it was us getting the question (as everybody knows, I believe). I recall us not answering promptly due to RL interfering... and because we had to discuss the response internally. It was a bit difficult to answer honestly without giving out info that could work against our allies (though we were aware of what Arnelos touched in his last post - that GS/RP somehow learned about the source of saltpeter in the Southern Bob... the info was not 100% confirmed, but the rumour was there). The thing was that GoW/ND did not always communicate their/your troop positions for battlefields we were not involved in. So when we were asked, we honestly did not know if that unclaimed saltpeter was actually claimed by someone's troops or not - and there was no easy way to find out without asking about the troop positions (which was not usual between us & GoW/ND & naturally impossible with GS due to indirect hinting). Eventually, IIRC, we worded the response as precisely as we were able to - but it might have sounded evasive. And depending on what one considers "close", maybe even (fully or partially) false... but the fact was the source was closer to the ND territory (MErida) than to the GS territory (Barcelona) at that time.

	10-02-2004 22:49									#236
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That's OK Vondrack We knew you worded it so that it could technically be true, seeing as you could legitimately claim to not know our exact troop positions etc.

It was an awkward question, I'm sorry, but we were in an awkward spot. If I had been in your position I would have said "We're sorry, but we are unable to disclose that information". So maybe use that one next time, when we ask about the rubber / oil ?

	10-02-2004 23:20									#237
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We assumed once you camped out there that you knew where the SP was and most of our plans were oriented toward that area to account for that fact(thus pamploma became target of opportunity(at least with GOW) instead of the primary target(ie Barcelona and the harbors)). So I am surpised about you all not knowing, I always assumed in diplo discussions that this whole SP issue was like a dance where both know the answer but neither will admit to that fact. Actually you can still hope for a source to be exhausted and have it appear in Stormia.

Aggie

	10-02-2004 23:35									#238
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quote: Originally posted by Cort Haus Guys, what would have happened if you'd opened the save to see Muskets in Pamplona?

Simply we would have roaded the mountain s of Pamploma(3 turns), moved all catapults there and just blasted away until the city was 6 or under. Then we would have attacked.

Of course we would have launched a concentarted attack on the SP first. But I'll admit this was one of my fears and something we really didn't want to happen. Our numbers and speed allowed us to deal with pikes with minimal loses, but muskets on hills are 6 instead of 4.5 and much scarier( 7 vs 5.25 if forted).

Though from my experience in this game if they had been located on the forest SW of Pamploma they would all hve been killed anyway. . That location almost always really went against the defender. Perhaps its a "cursed square", actually that would be an interesting concept for civ4. Have locations(unmarked) where the defender is unusally vulnerable and the opposite would be fun too.

Aggie

	11-02-2004 00:29									#239
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quote: (though we were aware of what Arnelos touched in his last post - that GS/RP somehow learned about the source of saltpeter in the Southern Bob... the info was not 100% confirmed, but the rumour was there).

Yes... one of the great unanswered questions from the war. Did someone have a double agent working for them?

	11-02-2004 01:04									#240
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quote: Originally posted by Aggie We assumed once you camped out there that you knew where the SP was and most of our plans were oriented toward that area to account for that fact(thus pamploma became target of opportunity(at least with GOW) instead of the primary target(ie Barcelona and the harbors)). So I am surpised about you all not knowing, I always assumed in diplo discussions that this whole SP issue was like a dance where both know the answer but neither will admit to that fact. Actually you can still hope for a source to be exhausted and have it appear in Stormia. Aggie

We guessed you were after Pamp because of SP, but thought it was on the high ground around Pamp and the Alamo, not by our ill-fated city site (amusingly named Fort Liberation). The idea was to defend the coast there and establish a base, but we got drawn north, first hoping to strike at the Alamo, then once we'd s-l-o-w-ly built up and realised you'd probably got a ton of riders there by then, ended up staying there to deter attack on Pamp.

Then we didn't have the numbers to found a city on a spot where we'd already lost 2 stacks. That was our problem. We could get numbers into a place, but our opponents could get numbers everywhere, it seemed.