28-01-2004 03:33									#1
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Chemistry
See MZ's lame excuses in the log thread. They still wants to trade techs with us, he claims.

So we're off doing 4-turn Chemistry. Perhaps Metallurgy for Physics would be a better deal for us anyway - if we want to do any kind of deal with them.

Galleys - I think we should bring them down to the high-commerce, low-shield cities on our west coast, where the builds will have more bite than in the north. Sound OK?

That will leave 5 galleys round Spain-del-Stormia for shielding coast while swapping units with RP.

One other though. What if there was undiscovered land somewhere in the darkness, about to become accessible through Magnetism / Nav? There's a big empty space to our south-east for example. How bad would it be to miss up on an opportunity to settle it? Unlikely, perhaps, on a Continental map - but is it possible?

	28-01-2004 04:00									#2
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I think we can divert a galley or two to a recon mission.

And I agree that we are better off getting chem ourselves.

I loaded up the save and saw that ND doesn't have astronomy yet. odd, imho. maybe they are being left behind, the GoW-lego alliance taking form.

Have we communicated with nd in a while?

	28-01-2004 04:14									#3
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I'd rather have chem from GoW, instead of doing it ourselves. GoW has little reason to annoy us, they would probably prefer us as partners. As we'll need the cash later on to keep going on research, a 1-turn delay isn't too bad.

The only problem is that if marketplaces are being build later on, we lose a bit of cash... but instead of whining, I would take it into account when setting a price. The more teams have Chem, the fewer we need to pay for it...

with the 2 deals, we would shave about 8 turns of our ETA of steam, I don't think we can miss that. We simply have to deal with GoW, even if they are manipulating us.

DeepO

	28-01-2004 04:15									#4
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Oh, BTW: if sending a message to MZ or UnO, maybe best to put Aggie in CC. No more excuses of "I haven't seen that message"...

DeepO

	28-01-2004 04:34									#5
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We've waited an extra turn already for GoW to send us Chemistry. Two turns they've let us down. That's in addition to about 5 failed attempts to get Chemistry before (remember the cities on Bob?).

We can't let them laugh in our faces a third turn in a row. We can try again for Physics-Metallurgy. Also, Lego might have Physics before us if we do chem first - which could save us a couple of turns on Physics.

	28-01-2004 04:37									#6
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Cyclone completes wrkr, starts wrker
Sufa completes aqueduct, starts library
Blizzard completes aqueduct, strts library
682g. Switch on research for Chemistry in 4 turns, +15gpt

	28-01-2004 04:44									#7
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Can't chop Typhoon-6 yet, as galley has been disbanded in Typhoon, so can't use Wonder to direct to Sufa.
Irrigated near Inchon for +4fpt (see analysis below)
Moved galleys south
workers nr Diss build fortress on iron
workers nr tempest wait for OG or MMing EotS-9 for Hurricane.
WoC loses ninth shield to corruption, so a mine is irrigated for +1f

	28-01-2004 04:47									#8
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This analysis looks at 'efficiency' on build completion. Another consideration is speedy library builds, but this lot was enough work for the moment ... Presumably if we spend some of our newfound wealth on libs we shortrush to a knight or granary then build home from there to avoid losing shields by rushing to the end.


Eliopolis - Library - 15/80s. 65 remaining. 13 turns at 5spt = 65. Perfect

Inchon - Harbour - 15/80. 65 remaining. 22 turns at 3spt = 66. Maybe we should irrigate here to get it to size 6 then re-mine. (did this)

WoC - Courthouse - 15/80s. 65 remaining. 13 turns at 5spt = 65. Perfect

Inchoff - Aqua - 42/100s. 58 remaining. 12 turns at 5spt = 60. We need to speed the aqua by a turn for growth timing. Suggest shortrushing 3 shield from 57-60 vie granary in 3 turns time.

Dissville - Aqua - 64/100s, 36 remaining. 4 turns at 10spt = 40. Can short-rush 6 shields via Knight to save a turn (or a Lib next turn), but is it worth it?

Santa Ana - Aqua - 35/100. 65 remaining. 10 turns at 7spt = 70. Scheduled to lose 5s, so a possible candidate, if worth it. Currently well timed for growth.

Blizzard - Library - 0/80. 10 turns at 8spt = 80 but will grow in 2 turns.

Monsoon - Library - 16/80s, 64 remaining. Use mnt for 6 turns of 11. Fine.

Arashi - can't face counting on a Uni (3 turns) but we checked it before - it's spot on.

Whirlwind - Aquaduct - 4/100s. 4spt. Good candidate for galley disbands

OG - Aquaduct - 98/100. 2spt. Has given most shields to Tempest & BB (wonder cities) and is on food. Good galley candidate.

Tempest - Newtons (via Bank). 64/400s at 21 spt.

Hurricane - Copernicus (via Palace) 154/400s at 18spt but will have to drop when food runs out. This needs a special plan (see 510 AD thread). Maybe Arrian could look at it for us

EotS - Bank - 36/160. 124s remaining. 7 turns at 18spt = 126. Fine.

Bolderberg - Magellans via Bank 10/400 @ 10spt

Tornado - Library - 22/80, 58 remain, 6 turns @ 10spt = 60. Fine

Typhoon - Aqua - 71/100, 29 remain, 5 turns @ 6spt = 30. Fine, and growth-timing is OK too.

	28-01-2004 04:48									#9
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I'm gonna copy that lot in the Adam Smith thread ...

	28-01-2004 04:59									#10
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Everyone has Banking now, so we can send that to RP. And a pile of poo in the post for GoW!

Maybe we should have another word with ND about tech deals, as was suggested. At least they say 'no' quickly. If they're still saying 'no' then we have to look to the slippery eels for Metallurgy. I do enjoy our radio silence to Lego though.

	28-01-2004 05:07									#11
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I agree with CH's approach.

I think that we need to treat GoW as an extension of other teams (Lego mostly). We should keep talking to them, but don't count on anything til it is offered as accepted.

Renewing contact with ND would be good as well.

	28-01-2004 05:10									#12
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Moved 4 units south from RP's eastern seawall as per Togas' PM.

	28-01-2004 05:23									#13
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Turn sent.

With this attached :

quote: Hi ND, Are you guys up for doing any tech deals with us yet? A future deal of your Metallurgy for our Physics, for example? Let us know if you're interested. Regards, CH/GS

	28-01-2004 06:37									#14
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I agree, that is all we can do at this time. If GoW does not finalize something with us, that is not a good sign.

I am wondering if they are just trying to slow us down, not set us up for an attack. I think that is going to be aimed at ND.

We are not in a position to invade them unaided, but ND is on the same land and can hit any time.

If any of this is correct, then ND must not be concerned about it or they would be inclinded to be interested in having some friends.

	28-01-2004 06:47									#15
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Yes, ND ought to be worried about GoW and Lego. Whatever happens, it happens with Mil Trad.

	28-01-2004 14:41									#16
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Hmmm... what about sending a message to GoW, telling 'sorry, but we couldn't be stalled anymore. You could still sell us chemistry, but as we've started working on it already, it would be at greatly discounted prices. We have no interest in trading it to physics anymore, but maybe you'd sell it to us for 300 gold? Offer applies for 1 turn only, otherwise there is no point."

One thing: if we trade physics to GoW on a 20 turn NDA, we prohibit them of trading it to Lego. Which mean we can stall Lego's race to ToE a bit... that's a very important reason to take into account when wanting to do deals with GoW.

DeepO

	28-01-2004 17:32									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Cort Haus Inchoff - Aqua - 42/100s. 58 remaining. 12 turns at 5spt = 60. We need to speed the aqua by a turn for growth timing. Suggest shortrushing 3 shield from 57-60 vie granary in 3 turns time.

sure thing...

quote: Dissville - Aqua - 64/100s, 36 remaining. 4 turns at 10spt = 40. Can short-rush 6 shields via Knight to save a turn (or a Lib next turn), but is it worth it?

24 gold for a 1-turn faster lib (as I assume that's next)? I'd do it.

quote: OG - Aquaduct - 98/100. 2spt. Has given most shields to Tempest & BB (wonder cities) and is on food. Good galley candidate.

IIRC, it had a lib, but no courthouse yet, right? at any rate, this is a good galley candidate for sure...

quote: Tempest - Newtons (via Bank). 64/400s at 21 spt.

a bank is 200 shields, no? so we have to make sure we get to our tech in less then 8 turns (as tech comes before city builds, so when the screen comes up, we can switch from bank to Newton). Can this be done? Please don't spend any gold before we know we can get this...

quote: Bolderberg - Magellans via Bank 10/400 @ 10spt

are we sure we can put this on a palace prebuild when the time comes? And don't we need the palace for a ToE prebuild?

DeepO

	28-01-2004 17:44									#18
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I was thinking too about offering cash to GoW for Chemistry - although (1) they won't believe we've done research on it, and (2) can stall us further - we have to haggle a price and then hope they deliver.

There are other prebuilds (old wonders available) including Sistine - and the Palace will become available in about 18 turns if/when we get Copernicus. You may have a point though - I'll think about this later.

	28-01-2004 17:47									#19
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Great Library is 400 shields - so that'll hold Magellan's.

I wonder whether Lego are going for Smith's, or beelining straight for Industrial, or getting Magellan's instead for their GA - or maybe they're planning on using Vox to trigger it.

	28-01-2004 18:07									#20
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PM to MZ here .

	28-01-2004 18:14									#21
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How much would Incense be worth to GoW in cash terms? I mentioned it to MZ. Of course, they'd have to send us Chemistry accepted this turn and trust us to pay them.

Chem cost was ~1050 beakers, so we'd have somewhere over 750 left on it.

	28-01-2004 19:39									#22
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well... there would be some 750 left, so 300 would be my maximum in gold I would give for it. If they stall another turn, they can get 150 or so. After that, they can give it for free, if they want.

And I kept into account the older wonders, but... we might need to think of masking our prebuilds. If they see us building the GLib, they can calculate exactly how many turns we need in that city before we reach the 400 shields...

I was also thinking on using Sistine's right now, on cities that have no real shot at a wonder. The more we get them confused, the better. What about setting EotS to Sistine for a couple of turns?

DeepO

	28-01-2004 20:25									#23
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I was thinking about wonder-switching too. Keep assigning different wonders to different cities each turn, as if we're chopping, to make it a PITA for them to keep track of.

Once we've grown up all the new aqua cities we could consider chopping programmes as you mentioned before, Deepo - alongside fort building on coastal mountains.

	28-01-2004 21:13									#24
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quote: Originally posted by DeepO well... there would be some 750 left, so 300 would be my maximum in gold I would give for it. If they stall another turn, they can get 150 or so. After that, they can give it for free, if they want. And I kept into account the older wonders, but... we might need to think of masking our prebuilds. If they see us building the GLib, they can calculate exactly how many turns we need in that city before we reach the 400 shields... I was also thinking on using Sistine's right now, on cities that have no real shot at a wonder. The more we get them confused, the better. What about setting EotS to Sistine for a couple of turns? DeepO

can we even build the library anymore? Its not showing up on my build lists. Kinda dumb, but I guess the AI would probably build it even if expired, whereas we would use it as a mere prebuild or culture producer.

on the switching around of wonders.

	28-01-2004 21:14									#25
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we can however use hanging gardens as a prebuild, only rp and lego ( ) have monarchy.

does anyone have navigation?

	28-01-2004 21:54									#26
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I think we still can build the GLib, yes... it used to be so that obsolete wonders could still be build for their culture value, I don't see how any of the patches would have changed that.

DeepO

	29-01-2004 01:19									#27
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I got this slightly cryptic reply from Zayxus (copy in log):

quote: For ND the possible deals are still considered . Greetings Zayxus

	29-01-2004 01:44									#28
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(copy in log)

quote: Ok, some last minute negotiation: To be honest we were (are) very interested in keeping the original two trades that we had planned. To GoW it will be very inefficient to end up having to research Magnetism in the same way that GS will find it innefficient to do Chemistry. I understand that GS has now spent 1 turn researching Chemistry so we would like to propose the following. We will send GS Chemistry accepted this turn (I currently have the save) in exchange for Physics once GS finishes it. To compensate for the 1 lost turn of research, GoW will, when finished with Metallurgy (in 5-6 turns IIRC) will dedicate one full turn towards taxes and send to GS the monetary equivalent of the research that GS spent last turn. That should compensate the lost turn for GS and enable both of our teams to obtain a tech which it would otherwise have had to research separately. I hope this agreement is satisfactory and can rightfully make up for this lost turn. Thank you and apologies for this whole damn mess. Regards -MZ

	29-01-2004 02:04									#29
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This deal isn't enough.

1. I doubt one turn's worth of their stinking research will compensate for the near-300 beakers we've just put in.

2. Our Physics on the turn we complete will be far more valuable than their Chemistry now. Physics is more expensive even before devaluations.

This deal sees GoW doing one over us, but it still could be in our interests. We should ask 400g + Chem to be a fair trade now, but we could accept 300.

	29-01-2004 02:17									#30
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It seems to be a hard one to take, but does it help us or not?
It does, would we be worse off with no deal, yup.

Can we afford to lose more ground towards Lego?