01-02-2004 08:09									#31
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quote: Originally posted by civman2000 The difference between these and mandatory community service is that community service is a form of (involuntary) servitude ("the condition of being bound to service" according to dictionary.com) and thus violates the 13th Amendment. The others are just as involuntary, but are not servitude.

Again, arguing the constitution in this instance is nonsense, as the service is a requirement for graduation, nothing more. Nobody will be imprisoned or whipped for not doing it. They just won't graduate. That's not remotely unconstitutional.

	01-02-2004 08:11									#32
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO Constitution 2 Slowwy 0 Boris 0 Stay tuned for more "Stump the Constitution" brought to you by the DNC

You're completely wrong, as nobody has shown one bit why this would be unconstitutional. See my previous two posts.

Boris 2
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	01-02-2004 08:15									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov You're completely wrong, as nobody has shown one bit why this would be unconstitutional. See my previous two posts. Boris 2 PLATO 0

Well I don't claim to be a Constitutional expert. Your argument does seem to be compelling in the area of Education not being Constitutionally mandated (and therefore reserved to the States). However, I still believe that while this is a worthy goal that it will lead to many bad things.

	01-02-2004 08:19									#34
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Maybe it will or maybe it won't, but regardless there's nothing remotely unconstitutional about it in terms of the 13th ammendment.

But I'm curious--what bad things will this lead to, in your opinion? Do you not think it could lead to a very positive result of a sense of national community?

	01-02-2004 08:28									#35
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quote: America's new challenges will not be met by the same old answers of big government

quote: As part of his 100 day plan to change America, John Kerry will propose a comprehensive service plan that includes requiring mandatory service for high school students and four years of college tuition in exchange for two years of national service.

Ahem...Typical liberal...

	01-02-2004 08:35									#36
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quote: There is no "right to education" in the Constitution

9th Amendment?

	01-02-2004 08:40									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Kirnwaffen 9th Amendment?

Wherein does that stipulate the government has to provide education for anyone?

	01-02-2004 08:42									#38
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It doesn't. You could argue, however, that it is simply a non-enumerated right.

	01-02-2004 08:45									#39
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I think that this is a bad idea (on the surface it mgiht seem good though)

the problem is that for some fields, like science

you do most of your acheivements between the ages of 20-30

and it takes years of training to get to the point where you can contribute

so assuming highschool graduation age of 18 (Although many are older), and 5 years to get to the point where contributions are starting to get significant (an additional 6 or 7 years until you are in full swing)

you won't be doing much until you are 23, and you will be ~30 before you are doing well

that is just too slow

and if you make it so that scholastics or money makes it so you can ignore this requirement, than you know that the wealthy with ignore it and the classes will become even more devided

Jon Miller

	01-02-2004 08:56									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov But I'm curious--what bad things will this lead to, in your opinion? Do you not think it could lead to a very positive result of a sense of national community?

-Due to the numbers of students involved I see a high opportunity for corruption.

-I see no possible way to fund this on a federal level

-I see no way the States can handle another unfunded federal mandate.

-I see College and/or the entry into the workforce being delayed.

-I see this dissolving into another JobCorp type nightmare.

-I see the government taking the responsibility from the parents to raise their children in a Civic way.

-etc...

	01-02-2004 09:04									#41
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quote: requiring mandatory service for high school students

We had mandatory service requirements at our high school. It's NBFD.

	01-02-2004 09:05									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Kirnwaffen It doesn't. You could argue, however, that it is simply a non-enumerated right.

You'd be an absolute idiot to do that though given that education was not freely available through the government when the consitution was written. It wasn't untill 1827 that Massachussetts made public school available to all citizens in the state free of charge, and they were presumably the first state to do so, with other not doing the same untill later. It wasn't untill 1905 that the US Supreme Court required California to extend public education to the children of Chinese Immigrants, individuals who were US citizens.
http://www.arc.org/erase/timeline.html

	01-02-2004 09:07									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller I think that this is a bad idea (on the surface it mgiht seem good though) the problem is that for some fields, like science you do most of your acheivements between the ages of 20-30 and it takes years of training to get to the point where you can contribute so assuming highschool graduation age of 18 (Although many are older), and 5 years to get to the point where contributions are starting to get significant (an additional 6 or 7 years until you are in full swing) you won't be doing much until you are 23, and you will be ~30 before you are doing well

Huh? The service requirement isn't going tack on additional years to your education. The two years of service is a different proposal, in exchange for receiving college tuition reimbursement. It's not the same as the mandatory service, which AFAIK looks to be incorporated with the normal high school years.

quote: and if you make it so that scholastics or money makes it so you can ignore this requirement, than you know that the wealthy with ignore it and the classes will become even more devided

Since the plan is to make it mandatory for everyone, and there's no mention of such exemptions, I think that's a bit of a stretch at the moment.

	01-02-2004 09:10									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller and if you make it so that scholastics or money makes it so you can ignore this requirement, than you know that the wealthy with ignore it and the classes will become even more devided Jon Miller

Similar requirements are already at some high schools for graduation, many of them "elite schools", and I haven't heard about wealthy students sucessfully getting out of the requirement.

	01-02-2004 09:15									#45
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It won't cause anyone who is already going to go to college through loans, scholarships, or private wealth from going to college. The requirement was stated as a 100 day summer program, thus it is not lengthening any time but rather removing that usless three months of unproductivity called summer vacation. They didn't even say if was every summer.

So basically anyone that was going to go to college at 18 now would still be able to if they were operating under this rule. What it also stated was that after graduation you could do an extended service tour and have four years of education funded. In fact, if we assume they go to a college of 15,000 a year they were in effect paid 60.000 dollars for that 2 years of service, and obviouly that 2 years would have to be a little more involved than the "summer camp." Would probobly provide room in board in a civil engineering corps barracks type enviroment. In other words alot of people who would never be able to go to college can after two years, and would do it through their own hard work for a noble cause.

Problems:

1) With a million man free workforce roaming around you might put alot of poor laborers out of work.

2) Alot of people underestimate the need for that swing summer work force that the summer vacation provides.

	01-02-2004 09:19									#46
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quote: You'd be an absolute idiot to do that though given that education was not freely available through the government when the consitution was written.

However, the Land Ordinance of 1785 set aside public money for the purpose of funding education. This could be construed as intent to provide free, public education.

	01-02-2004 09:21									#47
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Hi Ming

	01-02-2004 09:22									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Patroklos 2) Alot of people underestimate the need for that swing summer work force that the summer vacation provides.

Its not clear if it wouldn't be possible to still work in addition to fufilling the requirements of the program. The fact is that a portion of the population still doesn't go to college, and most of these people could fufill those workforce duties. For that matter, some might argue a tighter labor market that drives up worker wages is actually a good thing.

	01-02-2004 09:22									#49
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quote: It doesn't. You could argue, however, that it is simply a non-enumerated right.

That would require us to believe that a "right" can compel others to act on our behalf. The 1st Amendment right to freedom of religion was never construed to mean a right to force you to build me a church or buy me a Bible. And the 2nd Amendment right to keep and bear arms doesn't mean a right to compel you to buy me a gun. Rights are about what you can do without forcing others to participate. The only exception in the Constitution is a right to trial by jury, but that's a different matter since in that case the state/people are trying to justify removing your rights to life, liberty or property and the Framers didn't want the state to have total control over the process.

	01-02-2004 09:24									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Kirnwaffen However, the Land Ordinance of 1785 set aside public money for the purpose of funding education. This could be construed as intent to provide free, public education.

Which has what, precisely, to do with the Constitution somehow mandating education for everyone?

	01-02-2004 09:26									#51
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Btw, what Kerry is asking does violate the Constitution. Not only is there no power for the feds to be involved with education which was a state issue, there is no power for the feds to compel "national service" except for raising armies - and they didn't mean an army of social workers.

	01-02-2004 09:27									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Kirnwaffen However, the Land Ordinance of 1785 set aside public money for the purpose of funding education. This could be construed as intent to provide free, public education.

I'd have to hear the details, but this seems to be suggesting the government should assist in making education accessible, and by no means is suggesting that the students don't have to do anything or pay in some way for this education. I know that well into the 19th century, some schools in the US territories may have received government money for the building to be built, but the students had to pay some money or they couldn't attend classes. Your priciple that you are implying is something that didn't exist in the US untill 1827 at the absolute earliest. And didn't exist elsewhere untill much later.

	01-02-2004 09:27									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Which has what, precisely, to do with the Constitution somehow mandating education for everyone?

Careful Boris...You are getting dangerously close to a State's rights position.

	01-02-2004 09:30									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker Btw, what Kerry is asking does violate the Constitution. Not only is there no power for the feds to be involved with education which was a state issue, there is no power for the feds to compel "national service" except for raising armies - and they didn't mean an army of social workers.

The educational issue has been completely violated for years. The work requirement is more iffy, but in reality, it could be implemented by the Feds withholding government money unless the school implemented this policy that the government madated. You may not like, but the Republicans as well as the Democrats have been getting around these constitutional provisions in this manner for years without the courts stopping them.

	01-02-2004 09:35									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker Btw, what Kerry is asking does violate the Constitution. Not only is there no power for the feds to be involved with education which was a state issue, there is no power for the feds to compel "national service" except for raising armies - and they didn't mean an army of social workers.

It ammuses me when people ignore the Elastic Clause.

	01-02-2004 09:36									#56
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WTF? **** Kerry. In 2004, vote Green or Socialist or even Libertarian. Unless Kucinich or Sharpton gets chosen, voting Democrat or Republican in 2004 is throwing your vote away. Both of those parties are Stalinists[42] these days.

[42] Well, I don't want to be sued for calling them Nazis.

	01-02-2004 09:42									#57
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Beware the Kerry Jugend!

Last edited by Lefty Scaevola on 01-02-2004 at 20:13

	01-02-2004 09:43									#58
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I don't see the program as going to your local homeless shelter for an hour a day (though Kerry might have), but rather as a national labor service on the level of some communist, and yes facist regimes (not nessecarilly bad, they had a perchant for upgrading city utilites too). Not marching around with shovels as some paramilitary thing, though.

You go to a "summer camp" perhaps in your home state and then are bussed out to various projects like building cheap homes or picking up litter. Stuff that wouldn't require too much skilled training. I could even see the people who decide to do the 2 years to pay for college bieng the "officers" of the organization at the middle level.

	01-02-2004 09:45									#59
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All I'm saying is that the idea to fund education on a national scale was at least present at the time of the ratification of the Constitution.

The government established by the Constitution requires each citizen to represent his own interests by voting. Understanding what is in one's best interest requires an education. Thus, to deprive a person of an education essentially amounts to disenfranchisement, since he would not be able to properly represent his interests.

And simply because something that is intended by a law is not immediately put in place does not mean that it is not mandated. The 13th through 15th amendments were ignored for almost a century.

It's a stretch, I realize, but I'm bored and I feel like playing devil's advocate, even if I suck at it.

	01-02-2004 09:47									#60
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Ther is no inference the constitution that requires you to be educated to vote, or does it infer that you have to be educated to apply that right in the "correct" way.

There was a reason they didn't allow lieracy tests. The Jim Crow initiative wasn't the first time people tried that, and it wasn't the first time it was shot down.